Is it genetic?

[Beansandneedles]

Is there some biological reason why males stereotypically don't seem to see clutter/mess? And can't find things when they're looking for them?

Genuine question.

There was a study a few years ago which discovered men from all cultures/generations were less likely to wake because of a baby crying than a woman (more so if the woman was a mother). So I'm wondering if it's something like that?

I have a DS (5) and DD (2) and can already see that she seems to be more observant than him (i.e. moving a toy, going around it or even putting it away rather than just standing on it and not even noticing it is there). If sent to find something she'll come back with it whereas he'll do a cursory glance and then give up.

Is it to do with biology? Are they simply not as observant? Appreciate there will be exceptions to every rule, especially considering people who self identify etc. But just thinking basically and going on stereotypes here. Thoughts?

I don't think its biological. I think in some cases because they dont have to clear up the mess they dont see when it needs doing, or if they do see it, just wait for someone else to do it.

In all honesty , my partner is much better at seeing clutter than I am .

I'm worried you're right, but I was hoping for some sort of biological bone to throw his way 😅 😂

Someone said to me recently that there are two types of people...slobs and neat freaks, and they always marry one another 😂 Massive sweeping statement but it did make me smile at the time. Definitely couldn't call my OH a slob, or me a NF, but we definitely have widely different standards in a variety of areas.

That is a Lamarckian theory, they don't see the mess because they have been getting away for it for thousand of years now. It is proven wrong.
Darwinian theory is that those males that won't see the mess in the future won't have offspring as women are becoming more selective with theirs partners.

It’s nature and nurture. Eg I have three DDs. When little the middle one could not see through mess, mislaid things and never found anything when looking. The youngest found things for her from the age of 3 but eventually got pissed off and left her to it. They are now late 20s. The middle one has learnt to see mess and can sort it but never immediately. She still mislays things all the time and struggles to see things among mess, but has learnt to apply logic to find things. The youngest hasn’t changed - sees mess, sorts mess and finds things.

i think my point is that some people - male or female - are naturally worse, but if allowed space to learn they can get better at it. The problem is when other people always step in to sort the problem for them. This happens more for males than females, for societal reasons.

That's interesting! Thanks for sharing. Also makes me feel better about the way I'm parenting DS. Very much trying to encourage him to apply logic and tenacity to situations where looking is involved. Last year he lost his water bottle at a festival only to independently find it a few days later, so there's a lot of 'if you found your water bottle in the woods you can probably find the socks I laid out for you upstairs'. Seems to give him the self believe he needs...sometimes.

given me some new things to read and research!

I think also you're using your own experience to judge according to sex. Same sex couples have the same thing: one is neater/cleaner than the other. People are just not the same as each other. If you're not saying that your partner is a slob, but is just different from you, can it not just be the fact that... well, he is different from you? He could equally be posting about why women are neat freaks, couldn't he? I'm not saying that some men aren't slobs, just that it's easy to put it down to penis-bearing, when it might often not be to do with that.

I read something years and years ago that suggested women tend to have a wider arc of vision than men. This was supposed to be going back to our cave people ancestors. Men had more tunnel vision - for hunting that single bison and the women who were the gatherers needed to be able to see the ripe berries from the corner of her eye.

However, I believe recent archeological research has shown that women also joined in the hunting, so that theory may be tosh as well.

I agree there are messy people of both sexes, but I also believe many married men take advantage of women to be lazy. I also think perhaps some women care more about their home environment and find untidiness and mess more visually jarring.

Interestingly, for a couple of years I lived overseas where having a live in maid was the norm. After a while I found myself itching to do some housework (I know, I must have been mad). So on her day off I would do some housework.

At first, I didn’t think I’d have much to do, as it always looked very clean and tidy. But when I started really looking at things to clean, I only then started noticing the dusty skirting boards, mucky sliding door tracks etc, etc. She was a very good cleaner and I was blessed to have her.

But I guess I’m trying to say that if you don’t think something is your responsibility, you just dont see it.

The best parenting you can do is not to do all the finding for your kids (and husband)!

Hmm that's fair to an extent, and a large reason why I included the word stereotypically in my original post. Definitely exceptions to every rule, and almost certain that I am biased by my own experiences as you suggest. I've house shared with men and women, lived in all female households and had homes with 3 male partners. Would say on the whole that the women I personally have lived with, and am related to, are more likely to remove clutter from surfaces, and spend more time looking for something which is lost. When women are around places just seem to stay tidier, more often than not! The study about men not hearing babies crying was fascinating to me, and I wondered if perhaps there was a similar thing here.

That's so true! I needed that, thanks. When my children were babies my OH and I used to take it in turn to be the lead parent (or parent number 1 as we'd call it). The first day that I was P#2 was blooming eye opening. My husband asked my opinions on nap times and feed times and my response was a genuine 'I don't know'. Not because I was being obtuse, but because I'd really not been concentrating on it because it wasn't my job. Was so much more relaxing being P#2!!!

So, perhaps I've inadvertently become cleaner/tidier number 1 in our household 😂 Food for thought!! My OH is most definitely chef number 1, I very rarely have a clue what we're eating that night.

Didn't mean this thread to sound like a whinge at all, I think our household is pretty balanced most of the time in terms of who does what. I just find it fascinating how he lives when I'm not there. If he goes away we all still get fed, (obviously, would be pretty awful otherwise)... but if I'm away it seems they live in happy squalor. Which isn't the worst thing every now and again, just like beans on toast isn't the worst dinner when the chef goes away on business 😂

And mine, he's also much better at finding things than I am. I'm defeated before I start, he's like a dog with a bone. He was a detective though so maybe that's part of it.

The odd thing is he is a hoarder so he doesn't like things to be a mess but we have mountains of his "stuff" so I mind the quantity much more than he does, he's find if it is all in the right place.

Hahahahaha sorry for laughing but made me giggle. I don't have an answer for you other than my husband is exactly the sameQ

@Beansandneedles I made those sentences up, regarding the mess and tidying. However there are plenty of articles about recent fertility theories in developed countries and how women are becoming socially more selective with each generation our environment have changed and also we have changed. It is a Darwinian non genetic theory with some anthropological background. If you Google it you will find plenty of scholar articles. Some well based some just nonsense.

I believe that we are more independent now and more capable to provide for us and a small offspring, therefore the old theory of male provider is no longer applicable in some places.

Natality in heterosexual women with sperm donor is increasing.
Divorce rates are higher than ever.

Young women are becoming more aware of our full potential and capacity and at the time of choose a partner they wont settle for old fashioned values because it is women work.

Could be biological. Being the ones who carry and birth children will have instilled biological traits and characteristics not bestowed upon men. Nesting, instinct for hygiene and order for example. Might be a thing.

I do sometimes wonder whether there's anything genetic or evolutionary that encourages women to put up with and enable shit men, though.

My gran was a landlady, she'd normally have 3 or 4 lodgers. Eventually she'd only take males as she said they were cleaner and tidier.

You should read ‘Delusions of Gender’ by Cordelia Fine.

she says the idea of male and female brains is nonsense and it’s all nurture.

i have to say I very much thought that kids tend to have preferences related to their sex. DD was more into dolls/ DS was into wheels and transport. I never encouraged any of this and worked hard to be gender neutral.

but apparently, it’s impossible to mitigate against our very gendered society. From the moment they are born, we treat them as male or female- even subconsciously. They also take in cues from the world around them

Nah, does not work in our family. My boys are far tidier and clutter free than my girls who are creative types and leave chaos in their wake. I think it is far more dependent on personality/what they value/how they operate. 1 of my boys tidies after me and his room has been ordered and spotless since he was 2/3. He used to love tidying up in preschool and Reception, the teachers would always comment on it.

I read something the other day about how women are more sensitive to clutter and also to artificial light. Something to do with hormones and cortisol.
It jumped out at me as I always tidy and turn off the 'big' light as soon as I get home or
Enter a room!

When women are around places just seem to stay tidier, more often than not

Ever been in an all female house share? There's always one who is the messiest (there has to be, unless everyone is exactly the same), and the house shares aren't the neat and tidy fantasies you seem to think they might be!

Yup, I've lived in all female house shares, and in mixed gender ones, with individual women and a few male partners. When it's written out like that I've lived with quite a few people! Maybe I've just been lucky :)

Thinking about it this was the 50s and 60s and I imagine lots of those young men had done national service so maybe that encouraged/taught them how to be clean and tidy?

I do often wonder about the trope of landladies preferring men as lodgers because they're tidier. Is it possible that the expectation of men is so low that any tidiness or cleanliness looks amazing? Like men being seen as wonderful fathers because they occasionally change a nappy?