When does the damage of a father's violent behaviour outweigh the good he brings to the kids world?

[Wherearethewaves]

My husband has a long history of mental ill health, I've always accepted him how he is and given him 100% support whilst holding firm boundaries and somehow we find our way through. But he's started to cross the boundaries. We have 2 kids and when well he's a great dad- the kids adore him. When he's not well he's intolerant, angry and sometimes violent (not directed at us, but in our presence). I know it's abusive, I know the effect it has on the kids and I, but how do you know when tearing the family apart is the lesser of 2 evils?

Is he under the care of a mental health team? Does he need greater intervention and support from healthcare professionals?

My feeling is that he should live separately until his mental ill health is better managed, to protect your children.

Children need to not be near violent adults. So it doesn’t matter how lovely he is the rest of the time, it will never make up for it.

You have to remember that there is the condition and the persons personality.

What is his formal diagnosis?

To answer the question in the title of the thread - Never.

I had a dad like this, I am now in my mid 50s, and I still feel the effects, I will never recover completely, and it has ruined my life, so never is my answer too.

Oh, and I should add, I managed to have a child with somebody like this too, we left when DD was seven or eight, and she has grown up really well-adjusted, although she was very anxious in her mid teens I think as a result of the trauma. I put a lot of work into helping her to emotionally regulate and now now in her 20s she is fine and she agrees leaving was the best thing and it gave her a calm stable background to develop.

I would also say never too. Do you not think he’s already torn your family unit apart through his choice of behaviour?. Has he also been formally diagnosed with MH issues?. These are also no excuse as to how and why he behaves the ways he does towards you all.

I would assume you kids “adore“ him only because they’ve learnt also from you how to appease him. They do not so much adore him as fear him. Such men are never great dads either - women in poor relationships often write such comments when they can think of nothing else positive to write about their man.

Omg I’m so sorry, I think I got it the wrong way round.

What I meant to say was that a The damage of a father’s violent behaviour ALWAYS outweighs the good he brings.

I’m so sorry. This already sounds incredibly damaging to them. No matter how much they love him he is damaging their sense of safety and security. He can still be an engaged and loving parent from outside the home. And that is by far the best option for your children.

My father was loving and engaged but with poor MH that made him unpredictable and sometimes aggressive. The unpredictability was the worst part in terms of damage to us kids. Never knowing if he would be kind and calm or angry and frightening. Feeling like our home was never truly safe.

The problem is:

• Even the good times have the shadow of the bad times over them, and kids learnt to tiptoe around dad so not to set him off, they hold an undercurrent of worry, on edge until the next time. This can shape things for them long term in ways you can't even imagine.
• You are effectively teaching a young mind that this is acceptable behaviour for you and them to put up with, because he is great some of the time, which is exactly how abusive relationships work. How will your kids be able to recognise they need to leave a relationship where the cycle of abuse is present - abuse, forgiveness, love and attention, back to abuse again - if it's their normal? If that's all they know? They are being taught to put the idea of 'oh but he loves me, he just struggles sometimes, we need to support people and forgive them because the good times are so good' above their physical and emotional wellbeing.

The only acceptable amount of violence and abuse in a relationship is zero. It is not okay to sacrifice you or your child's wellbeing for anything, for any reason. Bad times and good times in an abuse cycle do not weigh the same, so they cannot balance each other out. 10 minutes of bad weighs far heavier than 10 days of good. Learning 'I must put up with certain abusive behaviour because of mental health' is such a damaging lesson to learn for a young brain.

I'm really sorry you are dealing with this, it sounds incredibly difficult.

He has a diagnosis of PTSD, related to childhood (boarding school at age 7), he sees a private psychologist weekly (has done for about 4/5yrs with a gap over covid) which seems to have been beneficial for his understanding/having professional support rather than just me, but it's not had an improvement on what things are like for us,he's also had involvement with GP/A+E/community mental health teams over the years none of which have been of much benefit.

You are of course all right- it is abuse, there's no excuse for it and it is hugely detrimental for the children. I've been laying the groundwork for leaving and now I must face up to it and make the changes for their sake and mine....

Look up the Centre for Diseases Control-Kaiser Permanente study on Adverse Childhood Experiences. There are numerous articles.

Yes, your children are being affected.
Yes, your children are being harmed.
Yes, the effect will be lifelong.

See, this is a complex situation because of how the law seems to be in this country. Ie stupid cafcass workers writing disingenuous reports.

A woman in this position will be told that she will have her children removed by SS if she exposes them to violence from a violent partner.

If the woman removes herself and her child from the situation, the man fights for contact and then is granted unsupervised contact. I mean WTF?

Immediately.sorry- I know that's not what you want to hear.

Exactly.

the damage outweighs any good as soon as children witness his violence, remember - this is their normal, this is what they will accept in their future relationships, alongside the excuses you may present for their dad

You use very loaded and negative language to describe separation- it's not 'tearing the family apart' as you put it. It's creating a new family set up in which the children no longer experience anger and violence.

Do the right thing and stop kidding yourself.

Seen your update, well done on deciding to leave and protect them.

@Foxblue
“You are effectively teaching a young mind that this is acceptable behaviour for you and them to put up with, because he is great some of the time, which is exactly how abusive relationships work.”

this is the real issue. By leaving and removing your children from this pressure cooker your legacy as a parent will hopefully be that you are able to work successfully towards undoing the very real damage he is causing. Not only damage in terms of the way your children will be walking on eggshells and placating their father instead of being carefree children but also in the damage in the sense of history and relationships repeating themselves.

Agree that CAFCASS are a disgrace.

Foxblue, thank you-this is the clearest and most helpful thing i have ever read on mumsnet, and is something i will return to for strength and inspiration.
(I was that child and then became that mother but we left)

I'm so glad you found it helpful - but I'm even more glad to hear you left an abusive situation, I hope you and your children have found happiness on the other side 💐

To leave wouldn't be 'tearing your family apart'.

I left an abusive situation and it felt like I was saving us. We were still as much a family, DCs and me, we were no less just because their father wasn't in the same house anymore.

But our home was much much calmer and happier and relaxed. And the DCs thrived. And now, as adults, they know and understand not to stick around if someone treats you badly.

Violence in front of children literally shatters their sense of safety in the world.

They grow up without good foundations and are vulnerable to bullies and manipulators.

Predators can pick a vulnerable child out of a crowd and will zone in.

They can’t trust their mother to protect them either because you are not removing them from this harmful situation.

I have never recovered from the violence I grew up with. I was vulnerable and suffered immensely.

It has destroyed my life and my sibling’s lives.

This is not about you or your rotten, abusive husband - it’s about your children.

The moment he raises a hand or threatens your children is when he leaves. I suspect you think that is a pretty nuclear statement but I lived through my father ranting each weekend about my brothers and sisters. I can remember the night he sat in our living room with a pitch fork waiting from my brother, the names he called us all. I remember the Sundays spent in silence lest we wake him and set him off again. My mother could not leave him as she was a cradle Catholic and even tried to involve the priests, but nothing was resolved

So when I was about 14 he started on me, but I had learnt from my siblings and stood up for myself. I stopped talking to him at 16, I refused his efforts to apologise having witnessed him pulling this with my siblings. He died when I was 19, I did not go to his funeral and no almost 50 yrs later, I do not regret that, either.

The only acceptable level of abuse is none.

The reason for his aggression and violence is irrelevant, he is scaring your dc with these outbursts. That is extremely unhealthy.