When does the damage of a father's violent behaviour outweigh the good he brings to the kids world?

[Wherearethewaves]

My husband has a long history of mental ill health, I've always accepted him how he is and given him 100% support whilst holding firm boundaries and somehow we find our way through. But he's started to cross the boundaries. We have 2 kids and when well he's a great dad- the kids adore him. When he's not well he's intolerant, angry and sometimes violent (not directed at us, but in our presence). I know it's abusive, I know the effect it has on the kids and I, but how do you know when tearing the family apart is the lesser of 2 evils?

The problem is that if it happens more than once, the DC (and you ) will subconsciously be constantly looking out for it and, most likely, modifying your behaviour to attempt to prevent/mitigate it. So the damage is significant, and cumulative.

The mental health support he is getting is clearly not sufficient. Has he considered meds? Also, what happens AFTER these episodes? Does he accept full responsibility? Apologise to you and the DC? Explain why it's not okay?

or is it all brushed under the carpet and if it's ever mentioned, the tension builds again? This is even worse. my DH can have a temper. No violence though. But he 100% knows it's not okay, and so do the DC. So they are completely unafraid to tell him this. And even so, I don't like it and expect him to keep working so that we can eliminate it completely.

My df was violent, abusive, undermining, nasty.

By the age of 8 I loathed him and we had declared war. By 12 I'd threatened him with the police to protect us.. I left at the first possible opportunity. I have never trusted a man since. I will never share my home with a man, except my ds. I just can't.

Childhood experiences have huge impact. If your dh can't be trusted you need to put your dcs first and tell him to leave.

Has he not had any trauma therapy like EMDR?

The first time he raises his hand in anger.

Never. No other answer.

Your children will be scared and may get into a dysfunctional relationship when they are older I’m speaking from experience I wish my parents had split it was a horrible relationship and now I have issues with trust get out for your kids sake

The damage is done when the violence or abuse occurs. Nothing is ever the same in a child's world once they've felt the fear such an incident causes.

The question in your title is unspoken, but the answer is:
The time to leave is ASAP.

I was in an abusive marriage for 12 years, we have been divorced 9 years, the abuse towards my kids started when I left, they haven’t seen him for 3 years now when I finally said enough was enough, however it was to late, I should have cut that shit out from the start. My kids are 12 and 16 and now both have mental health issues, anxiety and one has an eating disorder.
do something for your kids sooner rather than later. I will regret not pulling them away sooner for the rest of my life.

OP you risk your children’s mental health immeasurably by staying with him. If you separate he can firstly see the consequences of his actions (and mental health or not, sometimes we need to see this in the cold light of day) but he can start to rebuild a healthier relationship with his children with very clear boundaries.

Please don’t let this cycle of trauma extend to your children. He can still be a great dad but you need to have much clearer boundaries and I’m afraid this can only be truly achieved by leaving him. Your children will only thank you in the long term.

I'm glad you have decided to leave now.
I stayed too long.
It has affected my teenagers mental health. One is suicidal, self harms and has disordered eating. As they got older they didn't walk on egg shells like I did and the emotional abuse and anger to them got worse and worse. When I saw it that is when I decided to leave.
After we had left they told me he had started throwing things at them and then hitting them when I wasn't around a long while before. It went on so long they thought it normal behaviour and never told me.
He had been abused as a child but that doesn't excuse his behaviour. He has given me ptsd from the way he treated me over the 20years we were married but I could never use that an excuse to let me abuse my children.

Never!! Trigger warning…

I grew up with an emotionally imbalanced mother. She was loving and fun at times, but her moods were a rollercoaster, happy, silly, moody, silent, angry, ranting. She really would have benefited from counselling and antidepressants. As kids, we never knew which version would exist that day.

She became more erratic in perimenopause coinciding with when she thought I was leaving her and becoming more independent (i.e. when I got my first teenage boyfriend).

After a particularly nasty family argument (when she was very unreasonable), she took an overdose. I don’t think she meant to die, but she did. After a period of shock, I had a dream one night that she was alive. I’m ashamed to say I was upset about that. She was really difficult to live with and was a fundamentally damaged individual.

Don’t let your DC exist in the same sphere as their father. He will damage their mental health. I think I’m ok now. My sister is not and that’s over 20 years ago now x

I also think the tearing apart family is very emotionally sounding. It’s sad. My mum was abused and she then went on to suffer trauma and my childhood looked normal but she created a very vulnerable girl, me. I met an abuser and suffered over a decade of abuse at his hands. I left when my dd was just over 2. It was very hard. My ex was abused and had a terrible childhood and no doubt suffered trauma and ptsd. But I was going to break the cycle for her and I have. Don’t create vulnerable children who grow up to be targets for abused and damaged adults. You have to do the right thing by them and he needs to continue to get help. They need a safe and secure home where they can grow without all this, they will be effected more then you can imagine. I am an example and I’d give anything to not carry the trauma that I do. If he was a decent person he’d move out to save you from himself and work on himself.

My dad would take me to the beach when it was raining, play pirates with me, take me camping and have heaps of adventures. I adored him as a child.

At the same time, he sometimes show his dark side, was unpredictable, had shouting matches, would tell me and my sister that we were worth nothing, and if we died no one would care. He would refuse to acknowledge our existence for weeks at a time when he was angry. He was cruel, and would threaten the things we loved the most to make us do what he wanted. The hardest bit was to have a person you admire and adore behave like this to you, when you're a helpless child.

My mum didn't want to "break the family". I wish she had. Both my sister and I have issues as a result of this highly unreliable person we could not help loving. And we don't only blame him. We blame our mum too for never protecting us from him, for keeping us in that toxic environment. She enabled it and allowed it to happen.

Please help your children. Your family is already torn, because of him.

Never.
This is damaging.
They should not live like this.
They should only see him in safe controlled environment

Ok so my perspective is this.. I have been married a long time to DH who has rapid cycling bipolar .

Five years ago I made the decision to live separately because of the effect it had on my then teenagers lives .

We did not stop our marriage. We live 2 miles apart (rural so that's almost next door in a town) ..

What I learned ?
Having genuine MH difficulties AND being a complete arsehole are NOT mutually exclusive.

He wants me and the kids with him .. so now he is able to control outbursts because if behaving badly he can fuck off home.. it took 3 years..

He is now fabulous. The kids choose to spend time with him and he has learned that he cannot 'blame' MH on poor behaviour..

This. Take note of this!!

I left a violent man. When initially seeking help I was told I risk my children by not leaving. I left in a rush and life was a mess. He fought me through court and got unsupervised contact. My child came home with marks on her where he had rough handled her bad enough to bruise.

People scream leave to protect your kids and it's true that if you stay you will risk emotional damage from what they see. But if you leave will he have them unsupervised? You won't be able to stop that happening

What does he do op?

My mother was 50% of the time great. Funny, engaging, caring. 50% of the time she was a violent unpredictable psychopath. I’m 54. Guess what 50% has stayed with me?

...but your kids will know you tried, and fought for them, instead of staying and forcing them to share their home with an abuser.

@PurpleBugz yeah I understand. My ex has unsupervised access to our dd. It’s rubbish to think he is still emotionally abusive and all the other stuff. But I have a loving safe home for her the rest of the time. I have energy and focus for her instead of living on eggshells. It’s not ideal but it definitely outweighs having one parent away from the situation. I see it as damage control unfortunately but I would never stay because I was not the mum I wanted to be with him.

Your children are me and my brother.

My Dad had depression and probably bipolar (not really talked about back then). He generally only sporadically engaged with medication, but sometimes, he was fine.
Mostly not.
He's dead now, but I have never forgiven or forgotten any of it. I hated him for years.
I'm nearly 55 and still have flashbacks.
To a lesser extent, I struggle with my mum for making us live in fear and trepidation.

Having recently been in therapy and accepted the damage caused by abusive parents my wholehearted response is NONE. Get out. My therapist would say you are playing the role of rescuer, which allows him to play the role of bully/victim. He has to save himself. You have to save you and your children. You don't have to be mean, you can say the violence is unacceptable, I hope you get the treatment you need. Your therapist can let us know when you're safe to parent so we can establish the boundaries of our contact going forward as healed individuals. You can word it as you please, but that's my two pence worth after spending £100 a session! Hope this advice saves you some dosh for your exit plan.

*edited for spelling

@NamechangedtotellyouImfreeasabird I just wanted to say that sounds like a good way to put it. One is a rescuer and one the victim/bully. I wonder if you know yourself whether the victim/bully is looking for a rescuer as a partner? It’s funny because in my particular instance he thought of himself as the rescuer but he was the one reliant on praise and validation….its confusing isn’t it??

No, speaking as an adult but with my perspective of my childhood.

When does the damage of a father's violent behaviour outweigh the good he brings to the kids world?

I'd say as soon as he's losing control and becoming violent.

That immediately teaches your kids so many bad messages like it's ok to love and be scared of someone. It's ok to lash out when you're having big feelings. Mental health is an excuse to be violent. That they need to ignore their gut feelings and continue to spend time around an adult who makes them feel unsafe because of who the adult is. That their mum will expect them to think and do these things.

You talk about strong boundaries but you're still tolerating abuse around your children. I agree with others, he needs to be in control of himself and have his mental health better managed before being around the kids full time. That's not to say you can't visit or plan certain things but it needs to be well managed and when he's well.

I also think op, you have no guarantees here, if he's violent around you then really there's no reason why he couldn't be violent to you. He's already being abusive and it could escalate. I think you need to speak to the mh team working with him about what they feel is appropriate and get social services support. I had a friend raising children in a similar situation. She did all she could to support him and look after the kids and then he nearly killed them all in an escalation of ill mental health and she was left with a severe brain injury, kids were deeply traumatised having witnessed it all.

You cannot take risks where your kids are concerned and while it may not be his fault he's unwell, he needs to be in control of himself to be around his children safely.