can you have a marriage that works without physical closeness?

[bracciano]

Dh commented yesterday that it didn't seem as long as a year ago that we had our last wedding anniversary. Well, it did to me, as I remember it as the last time we made love. In a long discussion last summer, he told me that it had only happened because I was clearly hoping for it and not because it gave him any pleasure. I had hoped that it was perhaps a sign that he would like to make love if the time was right, that is, when he wasn't exhausted and stressed.

He has his own business and is only carrying on to support me and the children, as it is completely draining. He has told me that he can only keep going if he grits his teeth every single day and that he hates his life. Once the youngest is through school, he wants to sell the house and business, and get away from all responsibility. That's in about a year's time. I live on egg shells as I am regularly told that there is no way that I can understand his pressures and that talking about it all only makes matters worse. i don't know if he wants any of us in his future.

I really don't know why I'm writing this here. I just want to see if there are any answers or suggestions, i suppose. It is a lonely business and i am definitely making things worse rather than better. I have read up everything I can and I have tried very hard to be cheerful in front of him, but often I come across as moody and gloomy. I have got on with my own life and work, and I've tried to keep calm. I know that everything's just such a waste though.
I long so much to be the woman that he could have a laugh with and who would turn him on. It's unbearable to go without kisses and hugs. I get such a build up of anger and disappointment at all the wasted opportunities, the summer holidays (yes, we do take the children away, and I've even been with him on trips alone).

I realise that for me, the highlight of the summer holiday was the hope that he would want to make love. It sometimes happened once in the fortnight, sometimes never. Then when the holiday was over, I would blurt out that I was disappointed, and he would get cross (obviously) and say that the last thing he would want to do after a nice day out and a botle of wine was to put in all that efort making love when it brought him no pleasure, it was just work. It wasn't like this to start with. He's good looking, kind and funny. He could probably have any woman he wanted, but he hasn't strayed either.

When the children were little, I could give them a good hug and kiss them when they were asleep. So lovely! I really seem to need that. My anger has had horrible repercusions on the family. I so want to have fun and be carefree. But it's a start to be writing this. I'm terrified.

Maybe you can, your marriage is ticking away but it sounds like you are dying inside

Sounds like hes suffering from depression,doesn't seem hes gaining joy from anything in life at the moment.Would he speak to anyone about it,a GP?

Sorry you feel so empty and alone

Please dont blame yourself for any of this..its really not your fault by the sounds..echo poshwellies-he sounds like he's suffering wtih depression to me..but he probably cant see it himself as he's stuck on his treadmill of work etc..so for you..Its easier said than done but can you talk to him again about it?Maybe get him to think about is he depressed and doing something about it?I know it will be a horrible and scary converstaion to have but better than living your life like this?

Oh Bracciano - your post is heartbreaking. I am so sorry you are having such a terrible time. DH and I hardly ever have sex and it is something I worry about constantly but it sounds like your problems go so much further than that - it's not just the physical closeness but also the general intimacy that seems to be missing. Perhaps things will improve in a year's time when he gets away from work pressures?

aw how awful. Don't think you should have to live like this.

You are a human being, you need closeness and touch. He does sound depressed. He needs treatment. But he is treating you very badly.

It sounds as if you love and desire him. If he doesn't return your desire that's a really serious matter and not your fault in any way. It has to be dealt with.

Will he approach a counsellor with you to sort out these issues? He sounds as if he might bite your head off if you suggest that, but it might be worth a try.

I don't think that this is anything to do with you. I would say that he is depressed, it sounds as if he has been stressed for years and he really is just gritting his teeth to get through the day, so that even things that should be pleasurable are just more effort that he hasn't got. The light at the end of the tunnel seems to be that you only have another year to go. He doesn't seem ready to talk but are you ready to sell the house and business? I think that you need to know what he intends to do when he has got rid of the responsibilities and if it includes you? If the situation is purely caused by the stress and once it is taken away you can rekindle the relationship then I should just cross off the days and hang on there. However if the problem is within himself and is going to remain then you need to deal with it.I should choose a quiet time and ask him about his view of the future, if this is going to be too difficult you could try putting it all down in a letter.

Thank you for posting. I'l look at these messages and turn them over in my heart.

As for seeing a GP, I did beg him to do that, in relation to the lack of desire, as he had had one of those full BUPA health checks (at my encouragement) which puzzled me by not throwing up anything related. Bit if the patient ticks the box on the form that there are no sexual problems, then nothing is pursued, obviously. i can see why few men would tick that box, as it's embarrassing & personal.

So after that health check, I begged him to go to the GP and ask if by any chance there was a hormonal condition which could be tackled. I'd read up about how sometimes these things are chemical and can be sorted out. I had high hopes that perhaps it could be related to slightly too low testosterone levels, so it would be no more his 'fault' than, say, a vitamin deficiency, and that we could laugh about it and say 'phew, if only we'd found out sooner & let's make up for lost time.' It didn't happen like that.

He had the testosterone test. I waited for him to tell me the results in considerable anxiety & hope. Instead of a discussion, he just mentioned at table in front of the children that the receptionist had phoned, by the way, and the results were negative, so that was that. I did take it up later in private. I asked if there was a chance of talking to the doctor himself about the results, and that they may be on sliding scale that didn't rule out medication. No. He said he bitterly regretted having been talked into getting tested, that it had been very embarrassing & that there would now be a permanent record of it.

The doctor had said that loss of desire was common and that couples therapy was one pathway. He refuses to contemplate therapy, and why should he, if he isn't interested in love making and doesn't have time anyway. I can see his point of view. But it doesn't tackle what I want from our marriage. I so wish it could have been a medical issue, because then we could have felt less pressure about it.

I don't know much about depression, but I do know that if he could get away from work, he would feel better. I don't know if he would ever feel better about me, though. But he can't get away yet. Suppose he has a heart attack, and I haven't helped.

'He refuses to contemplate therapy, and why should he, if he isn't interested in love making and doesn't have time anyway'

I don't think that's acceptable for you. YOu are his partner and you have a right to request intimacy and sex.

It sounds as if he is dismissing your concerns and desires, which is a problem he really ought to deal with- it isn't just your problem.

Seems to me there is unlikely to be anything at all physically wrong with him- lack of desire can happen to anyone and stress is the number one cause, I think.

allegrageller (that's difficult to spell when your'e crying), I think that there is a difference between desire and intimacy, and he has certainly told me in the past -well, a long time ago now- that he has never stopped wanting intimacy. The trouble is that I have been so upset by this over the years that I can't seem to act naturally about intimacy. I never make approaches for a cuddle, never do anything that could be interpreted as a plea for sex, as I know that he would be repulsed. Therefore, I am sure that I have become unapproachable and unnatural.

At half term I did try a different approach, and bought some foot massage oil, and gave him two foot massages at bedtime (fully dressed, so he didn't feel that I was trying it on or anything was expected in return). I reckoned that feet are safe! Fairly neutral really. The trouble is, I feel so stiff awkward and stupid. I'm often near tears. I really would like to think up some more things like the foot massage. I'd love it if he went to get massages as when I have them (daughter gave me Xmas present voucher for one), it does seem very relaxing. Any ideas? Non-threatening and non-hinting ones/

Why dont you try a spa package for both of you-he certainly needs the time out to relax..Maybe also making time to have a meal out,just so you are on neutral ground and have a general chat,just trying to bring the closeness back without the physical side of it.

If you have only got a year to go before you can ditch the responsibilities then I should try poshwellies advice and go for neutral territory and find out if he is wanting to get the desire back. If so you could also plan what you might like to do once you have sold up. If he really wants to get your old relationship back then I should set a date for selling up and cross off the days and perhaps try not to worry about it until the stress has gone. However I think you need to know how he feels and his plans-you don't want to look forward to it and then find that nothing changes.

I have broached the subject and asked if I was likely to be included in his plans and he said he didn't know. He wants several months doing nothing and having no demands made. He is very angry and resentful nearly all the time but manages to control it by refusing to let it into his mind. He presents a calm and polite front on the phone and to his business clients. Nobody he comes into contact with would ever guess. He sounds cheerful and polite when he phones his parents.

He says that it takes him all the energy he has and that one day he may just snap and disappear.

He has spent a lifetime, he says, doing what is expected of him and doesn't see what it's got him. The only thing keeping him going is what always has, his sense of responsibility. Talking about it is waste of energy and there is no way out. Unless he just disappears.

I hope he doesn't do that.

The anger does come out when one of the children does something childish, like being ungrateful, messy, lazy or self-absorbed. I'm just as guilty. As a result, the house can be quite an unhappy one at times, although far from always. I realised several years ago that my frustration was being taken out in snappiness on the children and put a stop to that, but not before some terrible things had happened.

I really don't think that he is being fair to you bracciano, he is obviously very stressed, and I would say that he is depressed. He is putting on the good face to everyone except you.I don't think that you can walk on egg shells for another year. If he can't give you an answer about the future then I think that you need to get some outside help now.
I am always better writing things down, otherwise I get off track and forget what I wanted to say, so I would suggest you write to him saying that you understand the stress but tell him all the things that you are unhappy about and what you would like to happen as soon as you can shed the responsibilities. I would make sure that he knows that you are not putting it all on him but that you want to work at it together and don't expect instant miracles.
I don't think that it is fair for him to expect you to carry on for another year and then have to leave him alone for months while he 'finds' himself. I think that you can be too understanding and self effacing and the other person just takes it for granted.(I have done it in the past and resolved not to do it again).

I agree with Abbey,this sounds terribly one sided bracciano.
You cannot wait around for a year with this tension and lack of communication/affection/love/tenderness.

Hes being selfish and quite childish to think he can shurk his family life to find himself,we all want to run away at times but its just not done,you work through issues together.Although hes not working on any of his issues,just leaving you to second guess.

Hope you can get some solid answers from him bracciano,you deserve better!

I agree with AbbeyA. Your title question was "Can you have a marriage that works without physical closeness?", but he has cut you off physically and emotionally.

Do you have anyone to talk to about this? If not, have you thought of going to counselling alone? Relate would see you with or without your DH, so I understand.

Patsy

Have you asked him if he loves you, Bracciano?

Any talk like that, ChocolateRocking Horse, can sound confrontational. He obviously doesn't love me in that sense, that is, wanting my company especially and or liking my face or anything, because he is too busy and tired most of the time. I think I bore him actually. We do all eat together as a family and we sit down at about nine o'clock, if he can, and watch a film on TV together. As I'm up at six, it isn't exactly quality time, as I fall asleep on the sofa by ten. Sometimes we do the crossword together in the evening. He used to take an interest in my appearance and at the start he bought me clothes or came shopping with me for clothes. I think at the start he found me lively and vivacious. I certainly thought he was gorgeous. I still do. i can still remember what it was like to be kissed. It made me feel weak at the knees.

I have tried to look OK and be as attractive as I can. I've had my hair cut and I sometimes buy nice clothes for a bit of a lift (sometimes charity shops so it can be a bit hit & miss). Trouble is, if I ask if he likes what I've done now, he says things like "Our tastes are very different" and that he would never choose that. I bought two new outfits for Christmas. I'd listened carefully to his criticisms of the things he didn't like, so I thought that these would make me look attractive. They didn't get a mention. I did ask weeks later what he thought, and he said they were horrible.

When we talk about doing things together, he says," We want different things and we are very different." I would rather bury my head in the sand and hear about what we do share. Human kind canot bear too much reality!

So when I did arrange a holiday in the autumn somwhere warm with a spa so we could relax, he said after that it was frankly as he had expected, boring with not enough for him to do. As he has so little time, he wants to do vigorous things on a break, and they don't include me. I am trying to get fitter (Gym etc, the usual story) but I'll never make a mountain biker or scuba diver now.

I have tried to encourage him to do things he wants to fulfil himself, even if he feels impossibly pressured, and he has taken two courses he wanted over the last year. That is a good sign but the feeling of wellbeing that he gets is only temporary and it doesn't translate into anything that makes him act warm towards me. I seem completely incapable of getting it right.

But common sense tells me that when you are in the bottom of the pit, as I am, and going further and further down, that there is still light and there are ways forward, it's just that I can't see them. That's why I decided to post. Perhaps someone else can see something I'm missing.

I don't want to just turn into an ugly hearted person who feels hard done by.

That's reserved for his biggest scorn, by the way, people who feel hard done by and don't just get on and deal with things, like he does.

Oh dear bracciano, someone needs to give you a big hug! There is nothing wrong with you-except perhaps that you are trying too hard.
The pressure is no excuse, he is treating you very badly. The thing that jumped out at me was your last sentence-he is not dealing with things. He is taking it for granted that you will support him and you are being far too kind and understanding (I don't think that you need to worry about becoming an ugly hearted person!). You see yourself as incapable of getting it right but you shouldn't be constantly trying to get it right-it is a partnership.
I do understand, I had over 2 years with a man whose wife had gone off with another man (before I met him)and he was similar, he was good fun and charming sometimes, but he had lots of problems, financial, missing his daughter to name but two. I oozed sympathy and understanding but nothing was good enough, however hard I tried. Luckily it came to an end (not that I was pleased at the time)and I have resolved never to do it again-I don't regret it as there were good times and I feel a much stronger person from it. I can tell that you love him and are frightened of losing him but I think that you have to make him realise that you are not happy and things need to change.If you stop trying to please him he may want to make some effort to win you back. Have you got friends or family that you could talk to?

Bracciano I'm sorry but it sounds unbearable. I know I couldn't put up with this. You sound like a lovely caring, giving person but we all need something back. He sounds as if he has his own problems that go beyond you (he couldn't possible be gay could he? Long shot sorry..) but the way he treats you is not excusable. You do everything you can. You can't carry on like this; you will lose your sense of self.

I can only say what I'd do in your situation but if I was (and even coupled with my situation which would make it very difficult for my DH and I to split up due due some v.heavy responsibilities we share) I would want to split up. I could not take the endless mental torture of someone I loved (or at least the memory of loving how he used to be.. or I maybe wanted him to be?) being this way for so long. It's not a relationship. A relationship is a two way thing. You do all the giving - he doesn't even take he just blocks. You and all your efforts.

You are worth more. You are lovable, intelligent, articulate and no doubt physcially attractive to other men - or you would be if you weren't so bogged down with trying to struggle on with this "relationship". In a nutshell, you deserve so much better and so much more. And this is clearly about so much more than sex.

Nothing changes if nothing changes and if he won't change anything what have you got to work with?

Sorry if this sounds harsh.

Bracciano, I am very sorry about your situation. It sounds to me either as if your DH has a very low sex drive or he is clinically depressed or he may be sexually ambivalent.

I wouldn't read too much into the lack of overt affection - most men aren't very demonstrative. It's the no-sex thing which is unusual.

I'd like madamez to read this because she might have some bright ideas.

What does "We want different things and we are very different" actually mean? I am very different to my DH but isn't life about finding common ground? Why is he being such an arse? Why isn't he trying?

As others have said bracciano, your husband is clearly a very unhappy man and it is having drastic repurcussions on you and, I am guessing, on your family. Incidentally, YOU have responsibilities too - everyone does. Unfortunately, that is part of being an adult - your husband is in a place where he thinks that noone in the whole world has it as hard as he does which means that, as his wife, he believes that you are complicit in his misery. I wonder if YOU ought to see someone - a marriage counsellor, because I love my husband but if he treated me the way that you are being treated I would seriously question whether that was the way I wanted the rest of my life to be. I am not saying that you should leave him - I don't know what you should do tbh, but I do think that you need some help getting some impartial advice about what your needs are in life, what you want to see in your future (he has changed from the man you married and he may never change back - sorry if that is harsh, but if I am right is it what you want to live with, even if he decides to stay at the end of this year?).

I really feel for you, but as a child from a very difficult marriage that has continued despite both of my parents being miserable, I have a different vantage point about these things, and I think the worst thing that you can do for your children but most importantly for yourself is to ALLOW yourself to be neglected, emotionally trampled over and turned into the bad guy. You are allowing yourself to be the victim of a very insecure man and I plead with you to seek professional help for this before you find YOUR life has passed you by and the wonderful weak at the knees moments are but a speck in your memory. Sorry if this is not helpful, I don't mean to be harsh and I feel for you, I do. But you need to stick up for yourself!

Quattro I can't agree about the "lack of overt affection" being nothing much to worry about because it coupled with such cold emotionless behaviour that it is downright cruelty, whether he means it that way or not. He cannot be unaware of the effort Bracciano is making (to look nice for him; to plan things he will enjoy etc etc) and if he really doesn't want to be with her, he should have the guts to come out and say that. That's why, in Bracciano's position, I'd be the one to say it to him, after what she's had to put up with for so long.

Maybe you're right CRH

Another sentence that I found fascinating is this one - "He has his own business and is only carrying on to support me and the children"

So erm, in what way does he support you? Is he the main breadwinner? There is such a thing as provider pressure and I acknowledge it exists.

Does he not realise that emotional support is far more important than financial support? In the scheme of things. Does he blame you for his lifestyle and choices?

Sorry to sound negative, but it sounds to me as if he is waiting for you to give him a way out of his "responsibilities". By refusing intimacy, saying hurtful things (like about his dislike of your clothes) and the fact that he will not tell you whether you are included in his future all point towards it. Is it a possibility that he wants you to end the marriage so he feels no guilt, but still obtains his freedom?

I agree with other posters who say he may be depressed, but really, to you it doesn't make any difference what the reason for his coldness is as he has refused all offers/suggestions of help and possible ways forward. I don't know you at all so would not like to "tell" you what to do, all I can offer is an idea of what I would do in that situation. I would start living my life and gearing up for the possibility that he may not remain in it. See your friends, do any hobbies you enjoy, go away with your kids....without him, do not allow him to stop you from living.

And I am afraid I would confront him about the future until he answered me, I would rather know if someone didn't want to be with me than constantly wonder and waste my time on a man who didn't love me. You sound like a wonderful, warm, caring person and any moodiness or unhappiness you seem to feel so guilty for displaying is NORMAL, you are in an extremely difficult situation and I think you are coping with it better than most. I truly hope that things improve because you deserve care and attention from your husband, you need to hold on to that.

Good luck!

I know you've said he won't consider therapy as he doesn't want to have sex anyway (missing the point somewhat) but you might find this useful to look at, especially the FAQs at the bottom.

www.relate.org.uk/sexproblems/sextherapy/

Despite what people might think, couples attending sex therapy often face similar issues to you - strong resistance and hostility from one partner

Alternatively, relationship counsellig might be what you should start with, and the see if sex therapy could be right. But i know right now you feel there is no chance of him going with you. But you can see Relate on your own.

Honestly - I HATE to read you putting yourself down. You sound lovely - he sounds depressed which is making him selfish and horrible.