can you have a marriage that works without physical closeness?

[bracciano]

Dh commented yesterday that it didn't seem as long as a year ago that we had our last wedding anniversary. Well, it did to me, as I remember it as the last time we made love. In a long discussion last summer, he told me that it had only happened because I was clearly hoping for it and not because it gave him any pleasure. I had hoped that it was perhaps a sign that he would like to make love if the time was right, that is, when he wasn't exhausted and stressed.

He has his own business and is only carrying on to support me and the children, as it is completely draining. He has told me that he can only keep going if he grits his teeth every single day and that he hates his life. Once the youngest is through school, he wants to sell the house and business, and get away from all responsibility. That's in about a year's time. I live on egg shells as I am regularly told that there is no way that I can understand his pressures and that talking about it all only makes matters worse. i don't know if he wants any of us in his future.

I really don't know why I'm writing this here. I just want to see if there are any answers or suggestions, i suppose. It is a lonely business and i am definitely making things worse rather than better. I have read up everything I can and I have tried very hard to be cheerful in front of him, but often I come across as moody and gloomy. I have got on with my own life and work, and I've tried to keep calm. I know that everything's just such a waste though.
I long so much to be the woman that he could have a laugh with and who would turn him on. It's unbearable to go without kisses and hugs. I get such a build up of anger and disappointment at all the wasted opportunities, the summer holidays (yes, we do take the children away, and I've even been with him on trips alone).

I realise that for me, the highlight of the summer holiday was the hope that he would want to make love. It sometimes happened once in the fortnight, sometimes never. Then when the holiday was over, I would blurt out that I was disappointed, and he would get cross (obviously) and say that the last thing he would want to do after a nice day out and a botle of wine was to put in all that efort making love when it brought him no pleasure, it was just work. It wasn't like this to start with. He's good looking, kind and funny. He could probably have any woman he wanted, but he hasn't strayed either.

When the children were little, I could give them a good hug and kiss them when they were asleep. So lovely! I really seem to need that. My anger has had horrible repercusions on the family. I so want to have fun and be carefree. But it's a start to be writing this. I'm terrified.

I'm so very grateful that kind folk are helping me analyse this situation. I am too shy to go to the doctor and ask for a referral to counselling, although I know that I probably should, mostly because I have to think about being sensible for the children. As always, unhappiness leaks out and they do pick it up.

I am taking in all that you have said, and welcome any other posts, too. I don't need just kind words, though; I really need tough advice. The kindness is appreciated as I don't have family to talk to and I would be too embarrassed to talk to a friend. I've rather gone in on myself these last couple of years and I suspect that former friends think that I am busy and doing fine.

I still cherish the dream that I can get back my lovely man. And he really is lovely. One of a kind.

The thing is bracciano he needs to want to be that lovely man - you can't make him. But that doesn't mean you need to accept the current situation either.

This is what I would do, but I am not you and I am not in your situation.

I would tell dh that I appreciate that he has alot on his plate and that he is under pressure. However, I am very dissatisfied with the current state of the relationship and feel that he is not the man that I once married. I can not force him to be that man, but I am not willing to "wait out a year to see how he feels about me" either he wants the marriage and the family or he doesnt. Life will always have pressures of one sort or another, it is simply a choice about which pressures are worth and which aren't. If I am not worth it tell me now and put me out of my misery. Otherwise, pack your bags, find somewhere else to be away from me and work it out for yourself, but be aware while you are gone that during that time we will both be free and that I MAY discover that I want to move on from the limbo that I have been living in too.

Harsh, uncompromising, difficult to do. But that is what I would say.

I'm very sorry Bracciano, I do not have an answer for you. I think that I am in a similar relationship, and I wish I had realised what was happening a lot sooner than I did. I convonced myself that all I had to do was give my wife space, and when she was ready to talk, she would, and it hasnt happened and I think that now I know that it isnt going to happen.

I suppose I am saying that you probably need to force him to talk to you, and make him realises that maybe something has to change, and that only he can start that change, unless he wants you both to be alone.

You are right, Bluebutterfly, that I cannot make him. I think that is one of the reasons that things have turned out as they have; he has seen me as yet another person that has contributed to his being trapped where he is now, because he can be relied on to be hard-working and responsible.

These issues go back a long way (poor family, always a holiday job as a child, bullied at school, fought back & was the first at the school to go to university, pressure to please parents...) And I come along from a comfortably off-family and assume that he'll carry on as he's doing. Turns out he never really wanted to do the course he chose and before he knew where he was, a family of his own depended on him.

Yes, Quattrocento, I work too, nearly full-time but on a low salary, and have managed to take on another small job to earn extra in the last two months. I am terrfied because I do love him. Inevitably, I am also dazed at the idea of a future with the children split between us. I lost my parents when young and I believed that I could make this marriage is my dream come true. Enough of that!

Totally agree with you Bluebutterfly. Bracciano, that is the cut and thrust of it, you HAVE to know what he wants or everything else is just pointless conjecture. You must talk to him, however scary, however painful the answers may be. I hope for your sake that he says what you want to hear.

Didn't see your last post. I agree you can't make him talk, but also he cannot MAKE your life a misery, he has no right. If that is the case, that he will never talk for whatever reason, then there is no relationship left, all the advice in the world will not change that.

One of the main reasons my marriage failed was the refusal of my husband to communicate with me and the fact that he didn't care about my feelings at all. I knew it would never get better as he just wouldn't face facts. Sad and very painful, but true.

One of the reasons that I feel safe talking here is that it's Mumsnet, so the people who comment are likely to be mums and dads, that is, people who really are responsible and understand the pressures that we can be under from time to time, people who know what it's like to love children and want what's best for them.

So I must come clean and expalin that one thing that makes me frightened of rocking the boat is one of our children. Last spring, when DH was on the other side of the world for a month working, our son ran away from home at sixteen and stayed away for eight months, during which time we only saw him briefly, until he phoned at last to ask me to come and get him.

The reason for his running away was the fact that he couldn't cope with A levels at school. He's home now and safe but it was the most terrible thing that had ever happened to me. My husband took a more relaxed attitude, a bit more wordly wise, saying that he'd come back when he was ready. I never came to terms with this. I wanted DH to go and talk to him, to persuade him to come back. I felt betrayed and angry, and had angry fights over this. When our son moved into what I thought was moral danger, into the house of a sex worker, I became even more distressed. As I say, eventually he returned.

I am now very keen to keep things calm here, for this son's sake. We also have three other children.

Obviously, no husband feels the same towards a wife who still believes him to be wrong. We;'ll never agree on this and anyway there is probably no right answer.

But I am surely determined to avoid the whole house of cards coming down. It took me all I had to keep going through those eight months. I knew that there was a chance that our son would come back and it kept me going.

Bracciano, what you went through with your son was really stressful. Personally I am surprised at your dh's attitude to it, but obviously haven't heard his side of it; however, coupled with the other things you have said on this thread, he seems to be very insensitive indeed to your needs.

If dh does not open up and talk to you- with respect and openness- you have to think about what you want for yourself beyond him. It may not mean splitting up the family, but you may want to focus more on yourself and try (though it's hard) to get shot of your desire to please this man who seems so impossible to please.

I think that you need to give the house of cards a shake, it may be stronger than you think; and if not it will collapse in the end anyway. I wouldn't just hang on and wait. You have taken the first step by posting on here and everyone has given similar advice. Writing to him or plucking up courage to get counselling would be a good first step. I appreciate that you want the best for everyone, but you may be too close to the problem to know what 'the best' is.

Well, it's over, I've asked him and he has talked about how he feels about me, and there is no way forward. Thanks for all your advice, everyone. I'll re-read all the kindness in the coming weeks.

So sorry bracciano, but at least you know-there was no point in ignoring it-it would have come up sooner or later. Counselling may be a good idea for you. I hope that you feel strong enough to cope.Do post if you feel down.

Braccio Im so sorry for you but you will be amazed at how strong you will get so quickly. Its better to have no relationship at all than to have a total loveless relationship - MY exp never wanted to have sex for the last 7 yrs (since dd came along) and I put up with it it got so bad that he couldnt even kiss/cuddle me - he left 3 weeks ago at which point I was devastated. Im not over him by a long way but I am getting better at reminding myself that I deserve much better than being another mum to a grown man - You are too. Post away on here everyone is really supportive and that really helps when you are lonely. Youve been through such a lot allready I know you will get through this OK BIG HUG for youxx

Bracciano, so sorry to hear that. What happened? How did you get him to talk?

Hope you and the kids are ok. Your son may well surprise you in all this; perhaps he'll feel needed by you of a source of support and this will helk him long term. Stuff sometimes has a way of working itself out in suprising ways in the end.

Having read through this thread (OK, a bit quickly) I honestly think that ending this relationship is the best thing that could happen for you, Bracciano. While I think it is probably true that your DH is suffering from depression, and it's certainly true that depression can make people very selfish, there comes a point when those who are living with and caring for the depressed person have to remember that they matter too. Your DH's selfish, self-obsessed behaviour - constantly moaning about how he feels under pressure to live up to all your expectations while not actually doing anything towards meeting any of your (I include your whole family in this) needs may well have contributed to your DS running away: it must be like living next to a black hole of negativity.
THis is not your fault. This man has taken the lazy, cowardly, selfish option of constant moaning while resisting any and all attempts to improve his situation - and blaming his whole family for everything. Once you are away from him it will feel like a great weight is off all your shoulders. He may be surprised into seeking help for his problems: more likely he will move on to another kind and patient woman and drain her dry while moaning about his former family.
All the best. You will be amazed how quickly you will start feeling better without him.