What am I going to do with this sensitive and horrific information?

[wouldlovearoast]

Hi Mum's Net. This is a very sensitive subject and involves child abuse and maybe hard for people to read.

I am wanting some advice please. Ive been told by someone close to me that my friend was sexually abused by her older brother when she was 7/8 years old - so 30 years ago. He is a year or so older so he would have been 8/9 at the time. She's obviously never told me this herself so it may not be true or it may.

I'm actually not close to this woman and I know everyone is dealing with issues and everyone has a past and secrets. But the problem I face is that her brother (the abuser) is the father to my best friends children. If this is true, I feel like she has the right to know? Or is this going to open up a can of worms that could potentially ruin families on both sides - My best friends children's relationship with their father, and the fathers family. Worth pointing out my best friend is not with the father to her children. Because if this was me I would not want my children around an abuser, even if he did it when he was a child.

I'm also torn if its even true, because the woman is really close to her brother and allows her friends to date him and for children to be around him. If he did abuse her when she was younger, why would she allow the above and maintain a close relationship and lives so close to him? Surely she would want to get away from him and certainly not allow her friends to date her brother? Also I know abuse is a lot more complex then that but I'm just talking through the situation.

Do I do something with this information or leave it and not get involved? I just want to do right by my best friend. Thankyou.

Agree! A very delicate situation and I have no idea how I would tackle it, but you can't just brush it under the carpet 'because he was a kid'.

The real point here is that you want to protect the children from abuse. Reporting any sort of suspicion of sexual abuse always has consequences, but the most positive one is ensuring that the child/children are protected. Many here seem to be content to sit back and say nothing, because what happens if it is wrong? Lives will be affected. However, what happens if it is correct and nothing is said? The abuse is perpetuated.

An extremely high amount of children who have experienced sexual abuse will never tell another person, even as adults. And if they are questioned or doubted, they will often deny it again. How many times here on mumsnet has an older adult realised that they were abused and only realised it now? Something that people often don't realise, is that the damage from sexual abuse is lifelong, it affects their sexuality, their intimate relationships, their mental health.

Can you live with yourself saying nothing, OP? Your fiance could not.

This

I'm shocked at the responses too.

Yes it's an unbearably difficult subject but you must lead with putting the safety of your friend's children first. Before the potential awkwardness or upset of adults.

As a PP said, abuse thrives in a culture of silence. I'm dismayed at the number of posters who would not say anything.

Have you confided your worries to your fiance and would he be prepared to speak to the sister and ask if she has any concerns about her brother's children?

After all she told him while they were together. She presumably knows he's with you and that you are best friends with her brother's partner? Have I got that right?

I'd say to the friend who is mother of his children "Fiance told me that sister said he abused her as a child. Obviously this has come indirectly, but I couldn't just keep it to myself as I think you've a right to know this is what sister has said".

Right, to be clear.

Your fiance dated the alleged victim and she directly told him that she was abused in childhood by her older brother. So the words have come from her mouth.

Your now fiance has told you this because the alleged abuser is the father lf your best friends children.

Personally, I think I would have a conversation with your best friend. Approaching it very delicately and using just the facts you have “X told Y when they were dating X years ago, he told me last week”

Absolutely agree that he may pose absolutely no risk, it may not even be true. But the words came from the alleged victim, you know it’s not just gossip that someone else has passed on, it’s from her mouth.

Your loyalty is with your best friend. I would find a way to tell her what you know. Very difficult situation though

I think your fiancée should speak to the woman he went out with who was allegedly abused and ask her to confirm this so kids and other involved persons (your best friend) can be protected.

I'm quite surprised at the responses saying do nothing.

It's highly likely that this 8 yo boy was himself sexually abused by another likely older male family member.

It's common for young abused DCs of that age to act out their abuse towards younger children without being aware they are doing anything wrong as it has become normalised behaviour for them.

So I'd be looking at what family members could have abused him that still have access to children.

Personally I'd ask the victim about it. She probably suspect you know as you are in a relationship with an ex she told.

I think it's shitty that your boyfriend betrayed her confidence because it was bothering him. That wasn't his secret to tell. Absolutely nothing good will come of you telling anyone without the victim speaking up, and I don't think it is right for other people to force her to do that.

Are you sure it's not another older brother that isn't in the picture any longer?

Seems odd for an 8 year old to be an abuser. Unless he was abused too. In which case maybe she's forgiven him.

I'd keep well out of this.

But I'd have a chat with your friend about if she's gave the kids the talk about 'people who ask you to keep secrets'. Frame it as 'I saw a creepy programe the other day about how paedos operate. Freaked me out! Have you had the talk about bodily autonomy with your kids yet? It was saying to do that as soon as possible. Make sure kids know not to 'keep secrets' that make them uncomfortable and all that'.

What about calling the NSPCC for guidance? I really don’t think you can ignore this, but they might have some advice. In professional situations the training is always that you must not promise to keep someone’s secret when it involves safeguarding others. It may be that your fiance needs to ‘inform’ her (rather than discuss with her), that he can no longer keep her secret as children involved, and they have to be priority. So at least she is prepared for the shit storm it entails. She may deny it all though if she doesn’t want her life dredged up, but at least your friend can take appropriate safe guards

8/9 is under the age of criminal responsibility.

What sort of work does he do OP? Has he ever had a DBS check?

Nspcc is good Idea

I think the most likely explanation is that your friend told your fiancé about something that happened between her and her brother, that your fiancé framed as abuse but she did not. Children prod and poke at each other as part of play.

You can either put it out of your mind if you also think this is likely, or if you don’t then you could ask your fiancé exactly what your friend said - that might reassure you. If it doesn’t, you could ask your friend direct. If she’s not a close friend, you don’t have all that much to loose - although she will likely find it peculiar so think about how you frame it.

This may have been a similar situation to the one I was in with a family member when we were both primary school age. He was a year older, different parents.

It was a one off. It was experimenting/ playing that had gone too far - in hindsight this was probably due to what he had been exposed to in his family home. It was a one off. I told my parents. Social services were already involved with him for other reasons so my parents probably told them too.
Probably because it was a one off and we were similar in age, I never regarded it as abuse - just as a stupid thing to do and something I was slightly ashamed of. I would have hated my friends etc to know.

We are still in loose contact. He is a father and grandfather, and I have not thought of him as a risk to children.

I had more or less forgotten about it. My DH doesn't know about it. But recently my DM felt the need to unburden herself to my Dsis about it. I think DM was feeling guilty about the possible repercussions for the boy about them telling social services, but she is also getting more and more indiscreet as she is aging, and increasingly comes out with inappropriate remarks. My Dsis then asked me about it. DM had described it as him raping me, which is not accurate. I am very unhappy about my DM disclosing this to other people without discussing it with me first, especially as her version is exaggerated. I am also uncomfortable wondering how many other people my mother has disclosed this too.

I don't think this is your story to tell.

Your friend has children with this man. His sister (the alleged victim) is the children's aunt. Do you not think that she would be looking out for the children?

It is for her, their aunt, to bring it all up, if she thinks there is risk.

Absolutely and the fact she’s fine with it, is your lead.

8/9 year old abused 7/8 year old, even if sort of true sounds like sexual curiosity rather than true abuse, not going to be rape is it. More like, 'I'll show you mine if you show me yours'. Leave it alone.

op I think you could potentially ruin a family by getting involved . Be careful! You don’t have facts you don’t know enough.

My ex was abused by his brother at similar ages - he told me that it was "only abuse because of his age, otherwise he would have viewed it as consensual sex". But obviously children cannot consent to sex, and clearly it was abuse, and damaging, to both children involved I suspect.

However, he did not hold his brother "responsible" in terms of viewing him as a predator and a danger - and this was his settled view after years of therapy about it. He happily lets his brother babysit his kids (we are still loosely mates and I know this 100%), and had I had kids with him I would have allowed this too - nothing I heard of the situation made me see the brother as an adult risk to children (any more than anybody can be, with men statistically much more likely to be than women of course).

The point I am trying to make is it would appear that the woman in question in your situation feels similarly, and she is the expert on her own experience - all you have is hearsay, so your perspective is much less nuanced than hers. Anyone can be an abuser so of course this guy isn't 100% guaranteed not to be just because his sister trusts him - but I do think the fact that she does is something you need to pay attention to.

Having said that, I have no secrets from my best friend so I would tell her if I could find the words to brooch it. But I would qualify it strongly in the way that I have here.

It's a tough position OP and I get why it troubles you. You could consider calling Rape Crisis or similar and talking through the options with a trained counsellor? When I worked for a similar abuse charity (not RC) we did sometimes support people in this kind of situation - we didn't just help survivors themselves, but their friends and family too.

Good luck whatever you decide.

The fact that he was 8-9 makes a big difference here. I was abused so I don't say this lightly - don't get involved. The fact he was so young and the abuse didn't carry on into teenage years means he is not an obvious risk. Plus you don't absolutely know it happened. I would be more worried about the parents of your best friend or other older adults. What behaviours did the boy witness to do this?

FFS - some of these comments. 8/9 yo isn’t young enough not to know any better! Imagine this happening in your primary school and brushing it off as kids stuff. Child abuse is everyone's business, and any doubt should be investigated. Its far batter to be embarrassed and potentially loose a friend than it is to risk turning a blind eye to abuse. I don't know how I would go about this op, but you have a bad gut feeling for a reason, and I think you need to tell someone.

I spoke to my therapist last night, she suggested that my DP speaks to the alleged victim to see if she's seeing a therapist about what happened because if she is - then her therapist will have to report it as its a safeguarding issue, therefore the decision would be taken out of my hands and left with the professionals.
And if she isn't speaking to a therapist about it, then my fiance said he would speak to my best friend directly to remove any hearsay.
Thanks for everyones advice.