What am I going to do with this sensitive and horrific information?

[wouldlovearoast]

Hi Mum's Net. This is a very sensitive subject and involves child abuse and maybe hard for people to read.

I am wanting some advice please. Ive been told by someone close to me that my friend was sexually abused by her older brother when she was 7/8 years old - so 30 years ago. He is a year or so older so he would have been 8/9 at the time. She's obviously never told me this herself so it may not be true or it may.

I'm actually not close to this woman and I know everyone is dealing with issues and everyone has a past and secrets. But the problem I face is that her brother (the abuser) is the father to my best friends children. If this is true, I feel like she has the right to know? Or is this going to open up a can of worms that could potentially ruin families on both sides - My best friends children's relationship with their father, and the fathers family. Worth pointing out my best friend is not with the father to her children. Because if this was me I would not want my children around an abuser, even if he did it when he was a child.

I'm also torn if its even true, because the woman is really close to her brother and allows her friends to date him and for children to be around him. If he did abuse her when she was younger, why would she allow the above and maintain a close relationship and lives so close to him? Surely she would want to get away from him and certainly not allow her friends to date her brother? Also I know abuse is a lot more complex then that but I'm just talking through the situation.

Do I do something with this information or leave it and not get involved? I just want to do right by my best friend. Thankyou.

As others have said ....age plays a huge part in this event.

No one can trivialise sexual abuse but if brother was 8/9 and sister a year younger then brother was hardly a deviant sexual abuser preying on a vulnerable child. He was confused child himself .why did he do what he is accused of doing ..was he abused..was he exposed to sexual content he should not have been exposed to at his age and therefore could not understand.

I think whilst sister has carried this burden it's between her and her brother not something to be passed on as second hand gossip.

How do you know your friend is not aware?

Perhaps brother is traumatised by what he did when he looks back.

It's important to remember you are judging this from an adult perspective and applying all the horrible things we know about sexual abuse and predatory behaviour. You have no idea of what took place or the extent of the abuse.

This is not your story to tell.

I’m very sorry for what happened to your DD.

I'm also really sorry to hear about your daughter. 💐

I do have some lived experience of this. From the age of around 5 I was abused by a cousin who was three years older than me (he was approx 8 when it started). It only stopped when I was raped by him at the age of 11/12 and he was around 15. However my timelines are fuzzy because it became normal to me and part of everyday life so it was hard for me to pinpoint when things started but I know the rape was the last time as I lost my virginity. I blocked a lot out. He also sexually abused someone significantly older than him (another family member) and someone significantly younger than him outside the family. So I do understand you OP as you feel worried about sexual deviance.

However, someone forced my hand taking my case to the police and named me both as a witness to her abuse and a victim. The police process was a secondary trauma and was just awful. The CPS didn't pursue charges as the elder victim wouldn't engage with the investigation and both mine and the younger victims accounts were significantly impacted by trauma. The perpetrator said he couldn't say if he had or hadn't committed the abuse, he had no memory of it apparently. I have no contact at all with my extended maternal family as they minimised it, I became a kind of sacrificial lamb and they kind of blamed me and used my very bad mental health as a way to justify and excuse it. So, tread carefully OP. I wouldn't force a victims hand and I would think long and hard about placing a bomb into other people's lives and families in this way.

OP

You want to remove as much of the possible musical chairs effect as possible.
So get your fiance to tell your best friend himself directly (without you there).

@LunaNorth I don't know if you meant to write it that way but 9 year olds absolutely can be abusive. They might not be able to be held criminally responsible for abusing someone but they can engage in abusive acts that damage their victims. There can also be an imbalance of power in terms of physical strength, weight and sexual development between a large 9 year old boy and smaller, younger, less developed girl. That comment is very difficult for people who have been on the sharp end of peer on peer sexual abuse to read as it's dismissing their experience and reality.

Yes, I take that on board.

I’m sorry if my ill-thought-out comment has hurt anyone.

I’ve asked for my message to be removed and would like to apologise again.

I think the distinction some people are drawing is that while absolutely a child can sexually abuse another child, regardless of the age of criminal responsibility, it’s not an instance of ‘child sexual abuse’ in the usual sense of an adult paedophile abusing minors, therefore there’s no particular fear that the OP’s friend’s children may be at risk from their father on the grounds of something he may have done aged 8/9.

An 8 or 9 year old cannot be deemed guilty if sexual abuse, they're not old enough to understand or be charged. Stay out of it.

Actually, incest is a cause for concern, especially as one has no idea if he continued that pattern with other family members, or other children. Sexual abuse victims, which he could well have been one of, can act out what they lived through on other children. This also influences how they form relationships with others, and in my opinion, puts his children at risk. Incest is hidden because of fear of familial and personal repercussions, of which there are, of course. But then abuse thrives in secrecy.

I would not forgive myself if I had this information and did nothing with it.

Exactly @Laffydaffy . He may have not continued with the abuse to other children/family members, or he may have and it's continued into his adult life.

So - your best friend who you are so concerned about is already separated from the person who is accused of abuse that you're not even 100% sure about??

I'm assuming your best friend was with his guy for a while to have children with him??

She knows this guy much much better than you do. For all you know she may already know about this potential abuse that happened when he and his sister were children. She may be keeping quiet about it herself.

I really dont know why this needed a mumsnet post for you to help decide what to do. You stay out of it.

@LunaNorth thank you for being so understanding

This. You cannot blow people's lives up over what is basically a rumor. God forbid it is true it still is not your story to tell.

As others say - I'd stay out of it.
I'd also be guided by the sort of relationship his sister has with him now.
It is more indicative of her not seeing it as abuse - and more them seeing it as kids sometimes doing weird things together before they know what is what.

It’s possible that this is true. However, it is a supposition. I (51) probably know more people who had some form of sexually abusive contact with an adult or another child during childhood than didn’t. I did myself. I was 9-10. My closest friend was sexually abused by her mother. A former colleague was abused by his brother. Most of us are leading largely ordinary adult lives beyond (in my own case and in that of a few others I know) an inability to have smears or medical/dental treatments that involve anything being inserted. We are possibly more vigilant as parents than we would have been otherwise. None of us, to my knowledge, has abused.

It’s possible that this alleged nine year old abuser was himself abused, yes. It’s possible it wasn’t a one-off. But given the fact that this is said to have happened 30 years ago, and his sister has a good relationship with him in adulthood and is happy for him to be around her children and date her friends, I think the OP would need to weigh up very carefully the potential for horrific damage on a number of fronts to several families, with the likelihood of preventing a notional risk if she were to act on hearsay information about something allegedly done by an 8/9 years old 30 years ago when the victim has clearly judged there to be no such risk.

Firstly I can write on Mumsnet anything I need help with thankyou- some subjects are not to be discussed amongst friends. That's the point of it. And if you can't see the predicament I was in as a friend, then we clearly have very different boundaries in terms of friendship and how we treat our friends. I just wanted to know if I was making the right decision over something I think is important, I value my friendships and care deeply for the best friends in my life, that isn't a bad trait to have.

Secondly, I have considered it and said twice already I am going to take everyones advice and stay out of it.

I agree with this. They were both very young children . It is possible that the person who told you has framed something as abuse , rather than the woman she was talking about thinking of it abuse.
It does not mean that as an adult this man is not safe around children .

Can't believe all these people telling you to do nothing! Yes, it's terrible if it's not true that there are rumours going around and questions being asked.

But if it is true, it's a whole fucking lot worse.

OP, I think I would tell your friend as her children and their friends are potentially at risk here.

I think that if your fiance it worried, then he goes to the authorities with this info. Ie social services/the police.

What??? What if he was abused himself and now is an abuser of others? It's not normal for children to sexually abuse one another. That's not the same as consenting to experiment. Sexual abuse is sexual abuse. It's something the mother of his children needs to know.

I think it’s your fiancée that needs to deal with this. He needs to talk to the sister. Ultimately if it came out in years to come what would happen to your relationship with your best friend. I think if there are children at risk I would need to do the right thing and be honest. But it’s your fiancée that needs to have the conversation not you.

Really surprised by some of the advice on here!! 8/9 is not a young kid in say reception, that is a child who is not far off entering high school (age 11). Displaying sexual behaviour and those tendencies at that age is unlikely to have just left him suddenly when he got to high school and if anything I would be very concerned that his behaviour would have escalated without the proper therapy to determine why / help a child who is showing abuse tendencies. Sexual abuse is really serious and is indicative of long standing behaviour traits, I would be amazed if these behaviours did not stay with him into high school (only 2 years after the alleged age when he started) and into adult life. If this were my best friend I would ABSOLUTELY tell my best friend. No. Bloody. Question. He has children and therefore access to her children unaccompanied. His past partners might have no indication of his sexual history or indeed any sinister inclinations towards children so it’s almost irrelevant that he has successfully built positive relationships in his life. Abusers or people with sexual attraction to younger children often hide this, for good reason. His sister being his victim and choosing to have a relationship with him also doesn’t surprise me, the abuser / victim relationship is highly complex and doused with shame. Her choosing to have a “positive” relationship with him now as an adult has no bearing on whether or not he abused her when they were younger. I would absolutely 1 million percent inform my best friend of this information and she can decide what she wants to do about it.

This! What the fuck MN?!?

I had a good friend who was abused by her brother (who actually was/is gay and was clearly confused and experimenting with his younger sister). You would never know it because she hasn’t told her family and their relationship seems fine. She would never leave her children alone with him and, under the surface, despises him.

I would send an anonymous letter with the bare information as you know it. That’s it. Up to your friend to do what she wants with the information. I don’t think you need to personally involve yourself or your fiancée / but given this is information from someone you trust, I would absolutely follow it through.

Maybe it’s not true. But maybe it is! Maybe he was young and isn’t still doing this stuff / but maybe he fucking well is.

at 8/9 you are old enough to know not to do shit like this with your sister ffs.