Page 3 | What do I do? Leave him?

Pleasehelpimexhausted · 2023-12-20T15:48:29+00:00

I cannot stop arguing with DP. We have 2 children, age 4 and 9 months. The main issues are lack of communication and a complete inability on his part to take on his fair share of the mental load. He barely speaks to me, I can ask him a question (and he’s heard me) and actually be met with silence. He seems to think replying is optional. I’ll message him something and he won’t bother replying - he’ll just assume I take his silence as agreement even if it’s not ‘that’ kind of message. This has lead to a lot of incidents which could have been solved or prevented with basic communication. No conversation is ever finished, he just walks off as I’m mid sentence. I find it so dismissive and rude. I’m talking basic conversations about what the kids have on that day, or things we need to discuss (for example our house move). The second issue is the mental load. He seems utterly incapable of doing anything without so much hand holding, planning and ‘directing’ from me. He isn’t lazy and will do anything I ask him, but I don’t want to have to ask. For once I want him to decide what we do with the kids at the weekend, or book a needed GP appointment without asking, or just go into the kitchen and start making their lunch. Today he was supposed to take both kids for the morning so I could declutter a room for the baby to move into. He needs so much help getting out the door, I have to constantly check if the kids have been fed and taken to the toilet, as he gets angry and more flustered. I had to think of somewhere for them to go, and remind him when to bring them back for the baby’s next feed. It’s all so exhausting. It’s every day. The worst thing is he gets angry at himself and being called out when something else goes tits up, and ends up snapping at me or the children. I’ve tried talking to him about it. He apologises then goes back to how he was the next morning. Any advice?

GreenIsMyFavoriteColour · 21/12/2023 17:22

How about "Sure, I'll get those jobs done today. Thanks for the stuff you do too." That would bring 'harmony and peace', no? And make the household a nicer, calmer and more loving place for everyone who lives there?

The fact he's responding with silence suggests he's not being given a clear specific thing he can say yes to. It's suggests he knows anything he responds with will be wrong and/or its a lengthy list of his shortcomings in general terms rather than "Please load the dishwasher.".

Of course he may be be insane and ignore people where there's a more attractive alternative available.

throwawayimplantchat · 21/12/2023 17:28

@GreenIsMyFavoriteColour

The fact he's responding with silence suggests he's not being given a clear specific thing he can say yes to.

She has to remind him to change and feed his own children. He shouldn't need to be told to do those things. He is a parent. He's been a parent for four years.

He even walks off when she's mid sentence.

I'm baffled as to why you're being so generous with the benefit of the doubt you're giving him when the picture OP paints is of a man who (even by his own admission, given that after snapping at her and their kids he apologies before reverting back to type) is not behaving like a team mate in the relationship. Who shows contempt for OP in a number of ways.

It's suggests he knows anything he responds with will be wrong and/or its a lengthy list of his shortcomings in general terms rather than "Please load the dishwasher."

To people reading objectively, who don't fundamentally believe men are entitled to do less than women when it comes to contributing to a happy and healthy family life, it suggests he's a bit of a prick actually.

GreenIsMyFavoriteColour · 21/12/2023 17:35

throwawayimplantchat · 21/12/2023 17:28

@GreenIsMyFavoriteColour

The fact he's responding with silence suggests he's not being given a clear specific thing he can say yes to.

She has to remind him to change and feed his own children. He shouldn't need to be told to do those things. He is a parent. He's been a parent for four years.

He even walks off when she's mid sentence.

I'm baffled as to why you're being so generous with the benefit of the doubt you're giving him when the picture OP paints is of a man who (even by his own admission, given that after snapping at her and their kids he apologies before reverting back to type) is not behaving like a team mate in the relationship. Who shows contempt for OP in a number of ways.

It's suggests he knows anything he responds with will be wrong and/or its a lengthy list of his shortcomings in general terms rather than "Please load the dishwasher."

To people reading objectively, who don't fundamentally believe men are entitled to do less than women when it comes to contributing to a happy and healthy family life, it suggests he's a bit of a prick actually.

Yes, I don't doubt he's 100% to blame.

What's being suggested (and not initially by me) is that there are ways to manage things to get what the OP wants.

Imagine a nursery where staff members forgot to feed the kids. They'd just write down a time table so everyone knew what they needed to do and when. Yes, if they still couldn't do it then they get dismissed (divorce) but that wouldn't be the obvious starting point.

LeavesOnTrees · 21/12/2023 17:35

Why should she have to say 'please load the dishwasher' ?
He's eaten and used dishes, so have his children, I'm assuming the OP cooks so he should just get on with it.

If he doesn't like loading the dishwasher then it's for him to say ' I don't like this so is it ok if I cook and you clear up'.

The OP is living with a useless lump of a man who can't function the way a normal adult should.

LeavesOnTrees · 21/12/2023 17:37

Imagine a nursery where staff members forgot to feed the kids. They'd just write down a time table so everyone knew what they needed to do and when. Yes, if they still couldn't do it then they get dismissed (divorce) but that wouldn't be the obvious starting point.

In this scenario it would be the nursery manager doing the timetable. The OP shouldn't be the manager and him the useless employee. It's not difficult to pull your weight in your own home, it's pure laziness and entitlement.

Tiredbehyondbelief · 21/12/2023 17:39

throwawayimplantchat · 21/12/2023 16:19

Aren't your teenagers just learning that women compromise and wait patiently, while men do things on their timetable.

Isn't it a worrying precedent to teach them? That men are entitled to essentially dictate what happens when... just because they are men?

Show quote history

Before I adopted my approach I had many arguments where my husband was pointing out he had never asked me to make him dinner or do anything else. Why was I feeling entitled to tell him what to do, how and when? I have a choice of 1. Waiting patiently 2. Doing it myself 3. Paying someone to do it 4. Not doing it at all. Does it sound like subjugation? Or does it sound like treating my husband the way you would treat your best friend when you need a favour? Like I said earlier many men find a lot of things women do a complete waste of time and energy. Why does a man have to accommodate what SHE wants? (often at the expense of not doing what HE wants) Is is equality? Is it a basis for a healthy relationship?

throwawayimplantchat · 21/12/2023 17:47

@Tiredbehyondbelief

If I'm honest mate, it sounds tiring, unfair and a bit sad.

It doesn't sound at all like a loving, caring and healthy dynamic where both partners have equal opportunities to listen and be heard. It sounds very old fashioned.

I don't know your age, but perhaps it might be a generational thing. It's not a dynamic that anyone I personally know at my age (mid 30s) would think is fair and healthy. That's not to say I don't know people in that kind of dynamic. But they aren't happy in their relationships.

Like I said earlier many men find a lot of things women do a complete waste of time and energy.

'Things women do' being housework and parenting related tasks? It's just such an old fashioned premise.

Women don't enjoy spending time and energy cleaning toilets or meal planning or washing up any more than men do. They would probably rather spend the time and energy on something else.

But those things need doing and in a household where there isn't a willing partner to share those tasks, women disproportionately pick up the slack.

If you didn't mean housework and parenting takes when you said 'things women do', what did you mean?

GreenIsMyFavoriteColour · 21/12/2023 17:49

Why should she have to say 'please load the dishwasher' ?

If it's on his "When you get home from work" list she won't have to. That's the point.

The OP shouldn't be the manager and him the useless employee.

Well, she clearly is in the role of manager because she's on MN telling us about her useless employee.

throwawayimplantchat · 21/12/2023 17:54

@GreenIsMyFavoriteColour

If it's on his "When you get home from work" list she won't have to. That's the point.

So many men like this (not the decent men) say 'give me a list' though. But they need to be reminded to look at the list. They still try "I'll do it later". They need to be reminded that the stuff on the list still isn't done.

Anything to avoid accountability and ownership.

And all so absolutely exhausting for their 'partner' who still has to micro manage them to just contribute even a little to the household running smoothly.

throwawayimplantchat · 21/12/2023 17:58

@GreenIsMyFavoriteColour

Well, she clearly is in the role of manager because she's on MN telling us about her useless employee.

Which is a dynamic she is incredibly unhappy with, tired of and wants to change. That's the point. She doesn't want that role. She shouldn't have to play that role. They're both adults in what should be an equal and loving partnership. She's been let down.

You sound ever so disparaging about OP, who is feeling really low, really tired and really unsupported. You also blame her for not telling him how to contribute in the right way, in your opinion, when there's no indication that she's approached him in the way you suggested. And no indication there's any reason he isn't perfectly capable of writing down what needs to be done regularly and cracking on with it every week, for example.

GreenIsMyFavoriteColour · 21/12/2023 18:02

throwawayimplantchat · 21/12/2023 17:54

@GreenIsMyFavoriteColour

If it's on his "When you get home from work" list she won't have to. That's the point.

So many men like this (not the decent men) say 'give me a list' though. But they need to be reminded to look at the list. They still try "I'll do it later". They need to be reminded that the stuff on the list still isn't done.

Anything to avoid accountability and ownership.

And all so absolutely exhausting for their 'partner' who still has to micro manage them to just contribute even a little to the household running smoothly.

Well if the OPs DH doesn't do the stuff on his list then she can come back and tell us all about that.

But at the moment it's at the point where he can't bring himself to listen to her or respond to her. A cheerful relationship without day to day angst but with a list half not done would be a big step forward for the entire family. The subsequent divorce for not pulling his weight domestically will at least be amicable.

Carrying on with the same strategy doesn't seem likely to succeed.

RadRad · 21/12/2023 18:10

What was the dynamic of the relationship pre-kids OP? What he is doing is disrespectful but It may be that he feels you are in charge doing a better job of it, having said that this is no excuse to walk over mid sentence or not respond to your messages like it's not his business. You need to have a frank conversation that if you are to direct the kids ins and outs, he needs to take off you other stuff like house admin, cooking, etc. Does he have a demanding job?

GreenIsMyFavoriteColour · 21/12/2023 18:12

throwawayimplantchat · 21/12/2023 17:58

@GreenIsMyFavoriteColour

Well, she clearly is in the role of manager because she's on MN telling us about her useless employee.

Which is a dynamic she is incredibly unhappy with, tired of and wants to change. That's the point. She doesn't want that role. She shouldn't have to play that role. They're both adults in what should be an equal and loving partnership. She's been let down.

You sound ever so disparaging about OP, who is feeling really low, really tired and really unsupported. You also blame her for not telling him how to contribute in the right way, in your opinion, when there's no indication that she's approached him in the way you suggested. And no indication there's any reason he isn't perfectly capable of writing down what needs to be done regularly and cracking on with it every week, for example.

Getting rid of the "house manager" role is really not feasible IMHO. If she divorces him she'll still have to function as house manager for herself and, most likely, the children as well.

As for blame I really don't see the point in addressing blame. They are where they are. They're going to have to find a way for her to communicate the work she wants done that doesn't cause friction regardless of blame. (I'm happy to assign 100% of the blame to the DH, obvs.)

TheGhostOfTheOpera · 21/12/2023 18:22

If she divorces him she'll still have to function as house manager for herself and, most likely, the children as well.

But there is one big difference.
If you’re on your own and the house manager, you manage yourself and just yourself.
With a dh, you also have to manage him and his sensibilities, his lack of communication, and his wish for him to be out first and foremost. That’s not the same thing.

You can’t say that those are the same thing.

Tiredbehyondbelief · 21/12/2023 18:25

throwawayimplantchat · 21/12/2023 17:47

@Tiredbehyondbelief

If I'm honest mate, it sounds tiring, unfair and a bit sad.

It doesn't sound at all like a loving, caring and healthy dynamic where both partners have equal opportunities to listen and be heard. It sounds very old fashioned.

I don't know your age, but perhaps it might be a generational thing. It's not a dynamic that anyone I personally know at my age (mid 30s) would think is fair and healthy. That's not to say I don't know people in that kind of dynamic. But they aren't happy in their relationships.

Like I said earlier many men find a lot of things women do a complete waste of time and energy.

'Things women do' being housework and parenting related tasks? It's just such an old fashioned premise.

Women don't enjoy spending time and energy cleaning toilets or meal planning or washing up any more than men do. They would probably rather spend the time and energy on something else.

But those things need doing and in a household where there isn't a willing partner to share those tasks, women disproportionately pick up the slack.

If you didn't mean housework and parenting takes when you said 'things women do', what did you mean?

I admit I follow the Surrendered Wife method (by Laura Doyle). I first read the book 10 years ago. I din't follow her every idea. However I did find that no matter how much I tried resisting her suggestions she was proven right again and again. Which is not a surprise because the book was written as a direct result of hundreds of conversations with women who had adopted her method and found it restored peace and harmony in their homes. It took me 10 years and I am now a full convert. My husband and myself do what we both want to do and any minor issues are dealt through diplomacy you would afford your best friend. As I mentioned earlier my house is a mess because no one in my place likes cleaning. We are still alive. We parent together without telling each other how it should be done. As there are hardly any arguments between us the children are happy to cooperate (as far as teenagers could be happy when asked to do chores 😅). I can genuinely tell you we are all in a very good place. The reason I didn't mention the Surrendered Wife book earlier is because every time I bring it up on Mumsnet I get blasted for it.

TheGhostOfTheOpera · 21/12/2023 18:29

Like I said earlier many men find a lot of things women do a complete waste of time and energy. Why does a man have to accommodate what SHE wants? (often at the expense of not doing what HE wants) Is is equality? Is it a basis for a healthy relationship?

@Tiredbehyondbelief im going to guess because actually, in most cases, men end up doing what they want. He doesn’t accommodate. He just does whatever he wants. And in the OP’s case, doesn’t communicate at all.

My dh is like this. By not communicating, he feels he is avoiding the ‘argument’ of having someone saying they have needs too and he can’t be doing xyz or he has to do xyz.
It’s crap. Because he might end up doing what he wants but it’s me that is bearing the price if it. Just like the OP.

throwawayimplantchat · 21/12/2023 18:30

@GreenIsMyFavoriteColour

Getting rid of the "house manager" role is really not feasible IMHO. If she divorces him she'll still have to function as house manager for herself and, most likely, the children as well.

Doing everything yourself while having to share the house with someone who lets you down regularly by not being a healthy, loving partner willing to muck in when it comes to housework and parenting vs still doing everything but without having to share the house with them and inevitably do stuff for them too.

I would choose the latter personally.

throwawayimplantchat · 21/12/2023 18:35

@Tiredbehyondbelief

We parent together without telling each other how it should be done.

But he gets the final say on this, and other matters in the household, according to the surrendered wife method itself.

I personally find it quite sad the idea of teenagers (I'm unsure whether you have sons or daughters) growing up under the same roof as a surrendered wife and her husband.

Because as a consequence, their expectations for adult relationships will be very outdated and, in many people's eyes (including mine as I'm sure is clear) very unhealthy. And sexist.

throwawayimplantchat · 21/12/2023 18:37

@Tiredbehyondbelief

Like I said earlier many men find a lot of things women do a complete waste of time and energy.

What are the 'things women do' that you're talking about here?

Are they more 'things women have to do if their partner refuses to also do them' things?

Because as a sex class, women aren't any more keen on scrubbing toilets than men are.

It's just as a sex class we've been conditioned to believe we should do what makes the family's life easier and the home more pleasant, while men as a sex class have been conditioned to believed that cleaning and childcare are fundamentally women's work.

But women and men can both reject these premises and work as a team in happy, healthy, joyful relationships.

CruisingForAMusing · 21/12/2023 18:47

category12 · 20/12/2023 19:40

But that sound like you've just accepted your house is going to be a shithole and when there's anything you don't like about the relationship with your husband you simply shut up about it.

Which frankly I don't see a few flowers and gifts being sufficient compensation for.

Show quote history

Yeah right. This approach would quickly make me fantasise about living in my own immaculate one bed flat with our little dog 👎

TheGhostOfTheOpera · 21/12/2023 19:03

My husband and myself do what we both want to do and any minor issues are dealt through diplomacy you would afford your best friend. As I mentioned earlier my house is a mess because no one in my place likes cleaning.

And what if you like a clean enough place, you know acceptable to SS type of clean but your DH is a hoarder with a non acceptable level of cleaning??
What would you do then? Still each of their own? He doesn’t like cleaning so I do it all myself. Incl cleaning the huge mess he is creating due to the hoarding. All that to be at a bare minimum cleaning level? Or you’d give up and accept rats, stuff everywhere etc… (which is the level a hoarder I know is just now)

This system is working for you only because you have similar ideas of what’s acceptable. If those ideas were too different, you’d end up doing everything and be resentful of it.
Its not a question of system and being a ‘surrender wife’.

GreenIsMyFavoriteColour · 21/12/2023 19:14

TheGhostOfTheOpera · 21/12/2023 19:03

My husband and myself do what we both want to do and any minor issues are dealt through diplomacy you would afford your best friend. As I mentioned earlier my house is a mess because no one in my place likes cleaning.

And what if you like a clean enough place, you know acceptable to SS type of clean but your DH is a hoarder with a non acceptable level of cleaning??
What would you do then? Still each of their own? He doesn’t like cleaning so I do it all myself. Incl cleaning the huge mess he is creating due to the hoarding. All that to be at a bare minimum cleaning level? Or you’d give up and accept rats, stuff everywhere etc… (which is the level a hoarder I know is just now)

This system is working for you only because you have similar ideas of what’s acceptable. If those ideas were too different, you’d end up doing everything and be resentful of it.
Its not a question of system and being a ‘surrender wife’.

There isn't a strategy that will work in every case but I am certain some of the stuff that's been mentioned in this thread would have helped me a great deal 5-10 years ago. Trying something different might help the OP and they won't know unless they try. What they're currently doing doesn't seem very successful.

iamenough2023 · 21/12/2023 19:21

Dear God, some of the comments make me want to cry...or vomit. Btw, did anyone notice that the OP has left the building? I do not blame her.