December 2023 - So we took you to stately homes

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' back in December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.
Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society

There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be given with warmth and support

@TheBuggerlugs this may not be medically sanctioned or precisely in conformity with the views of all on the thread but I’m going ahead. It sounds like you and your aunt BOTH need help. Separately and both from therapists and as many sympathetic friends as you can spread the load around (therapy is necessary and hard but mostly helpful but if your heart’s just been torn up and it’s Monday and therapy is on Friday it’s not ideal).

@totonewbeginnings
Yes, very.
He was quite sly about if for many years bit the mask has definable slipped.

@freerider

I'm so sorry x it's a very lonely place to be, isn't it?

I'm not particularly healthy atm (not sleeping plus long covid...delightful!) and as pathetic as it sounds, I'm just not up to socialising with people I don't really know. (Christmas was pretty exhausting)

The last time I tried to be more social and make the effort with some of dhs wider family, it ended with me being hit on by his uncle!!! You couldn't make this shit up.

So, I'm not doing it anymore.

That's it.

Wow, so many typos!
Sorry 😖

@user8800 - You’re not an idiot. The current issue you’re facing is the inevitable kick-back because you’ve asserted your boundaries.

Nobody in their fucked-up scenario wants you to have boundaries. It upsets their applecart because you are refusing to engage in their toxic dynamic any more. So you must be “punished” and they will keep pushing and pushing to try to get you to re-engage in the game.

Hang on in there and be your best badass warrior woman. We’re right behind you.

@TheBuggerlugs - I concur with Binkie that you should look into and learn about triangulation. It sounds like your Aunt is a "flying monkey" possibly without her realising it. Triangulation is very important to learn about, as once you see it, so many things make sense and you can never unsee it. Triangulation can only be defused by stepping back and refusing to engage.

Thank you x

I'm so fed up of it. I fully do not intend to see them again until my dc bday in a few months time

This made me laugh, not because it’s actually funny but because my mother will put the fear of god into me but if I’m screensharing with boyfriend who has no power apart from the possibility of police report to do the crossword or sth my mother will put on her saccharine voice and go “are you on the phone with (boyfriend’s name)?” And if I am he’ll chirp up “hello (mother’s name)!” And she’ll keep her saccharine voice on and retreat. When he’s around it’s even better because he’s a man in his twenties and I love skin to skin so we just hang about naked in the room I’m paying easily 99% of my monthly pay to have a lot of their stuff stored in and to have it accessed whenever they want (boyfriend has remarked that he may make a passing comment that it’s a bit odd to have a door that locks me in and nothing to let me out).

My dad has been playing the victim to my sister. Bit of background he’s always treated me like the scapegoat, my sister the golden child. He’s quite vile to me over the phone, calling me stupid etc etc and has provided very little support for a recent situation I’ve been in with my ex, even when I asked for support he put the phone down on me.

he was insulting me last week so I blocked his number. He’s gone off whining to my sister that I’ve blocked him and playing the poor woe is me card. My sister then texts me with a load of abuse saying how dare I block him, why am I turning on him etc. she’s now telling me (like an order) that I MUST text him immediately.

I don’t want to, and even when I told her I wanted some space from him she wouldn’t respect that.

@JH20000 I have the same scenario with my mother. She causes shit then whinges about how she is the victim and then my sister who lives in australia emails me to tell me I am the problem. Its just ridiculouos at this point. I do laugh though as shes now been on whinging to my cousins and I am seeing certain posts about toxicity on their fb pages and laughing cos of anyones opihnion I would hold dear, theirs is not any I would.

Oh I’ve been told I’m the problem too @Genuineweddingone however the reality is I’ve set a boundary and now my sister or my dad cannot take it. There’s a lot of friction between my sister and me nowadays, I’ve started to see what she’s really like and she can be quite nasty.

the thing is I’ve done or said nothing to upset them! It’s like they take life’s frustrations out on me.

@JH20000 I hear ya, I am the scapegoat too. It is a horrible feeling and really messes with your self esteem and head.

I’ve just referred to it to my boyfriend as come home and kick the cat, except it’s kick the scapegoat (and in my mother’s case be smarmy with the cat because the cat likes me and she wants her to like her more).
Inspired by a conversation which included the words “the minute we leave you alone you get yourself raped”, the implication that I could get better from my MH issues if I just chose to! We’ve solved psychiatry in five minutes guys! And the refusal to admit that any parent can cause any child any damage. She threw in “if you’re like this because of us, why isn’t golden child younger sister like you?” Maybe because she was treated totally differently and coddled from day one and also is a psychopath who has self esteem. She also made me laugh a little inside by also asking why her sister isn’t like she is if parents can’t damage children! This is shaky logic now I’m unfrozen and can think about it. Her sister is like me - basically a broken alcoholic with MH issues, although with personality differences to me. My mother clearly didn’t quite emerge unscathed. But if you even pause to think about it for five seconds you get at least three generations of very damaged people and how exactly did that coincidentally happen?
Grr. Sorry for the rant. I still can’t get over “you got yourself raped” - it was a violent stranger rape and I weighed at the time eight stone and if you think about it being the scapegoat basically trains you to sit through horrific stuff quietly and nicely if they’ve trained you REALLY well you’ll get up and say thank you and have a lovely day. But anyway I’m afraid to say my hidden inner feminist woke up and I snapped back “are you actually listening to the words coming out of your mouth?” But it turned out she was and proceeded to double down.

@Genuineweddingone @JH20000 at least you are seeing them for what they are, you are stepping out the drama, leave them to it.

My mum was a full on narc, she wanted admiration and attention. I find the covert narcs just as irritating, their poor unhappy lives, victims, wanting attention, sympathy and soothing all the time. They are shameless about soliciting narc supply by any means from anyone.

Our best response is to have fun and just carry on living life, with family and friends who care about us. Perpetual moaners just love misery and spreading it.

I really apologise binkie but I’m taking exception to your last sentence. This is supposed to be a place where we can all vent and receive, yes, a bit of attention and the sympathy of others who have gone through similar things. Some of us are so damaged and in cases like mine, literally trapped in the abusive situation (my mother threatened to raise my rent by £400pcm today which is going to be a problem as she’s already taking my entire sick pay so I can’t get out, can’t put a deposit down and my family are steadily clocking up the debts I owe including for the private school they paid for after putting me in at age 4 and no, none of my few remaining friends have sofa room).

But as I’m sure you know sometimes people just have a shit time every day. I tell people what’s happening partly because my brain does that trauma thing where the memory goes misty very quickly and partly because I want someone to have a memory of it and partly because I want to make sure I’m not actually insane or unreasonable to be upset by it. I don’t enjoy that I do it, I feel embarrassed by the sympathy I get and I know it’s not fun to be around. But I’ve never understood phrases like “indulge in crying” or “wallow in self-pity”. Maybe for a certain type of person it is fun but I can’t empathise with that at all. It’s shit and I don’t want it in my life.

I apologise that was probably mildly vehement, and you’re still welcome on here, I’m not going to escalate. I’m not cross with you and I’m sure you are lovely. I’m having what my boyfriend and I call a fragile day and came for a reality check about my mother using phrases such as “get yourself raped” which is actually just more offensive to rape victims to me than it is to me personally. The next post ended with “moaners love spreading misery” and I’m a bit upset. If you or anyone else would like to request me leaving this thread I shall. I hope you are well and wish you all the best.

@Genuineweddingone and @JH20000 - this is why I went NC with my entire family of origin. It was the only way to step away from the triangulation and the flying monkeys.

The fucked-up dynamics of dysfunctional family set-ups are complicated and ever-shifting. Toxic people who thrive on drama and chaos HATE boundaries and will do everything in their power to trample over them.

Sometimes the only solution is to walk away from the entire family and bring the shutters down behind you.

@CeciledeVolangesdeNouveau
I don't think that comment was aimed at you. Binkie was replying to 2 other posters and in no way does it read like that comment is being directed at you . It was about toxic family members.
Sorry you are having such a rubbish day. Vent away x

Hello all. I'm a long time lurker / name changer here but wanted to check in please.

I am the unfortunate daughter of a narc DM and enabling DF, one of four adult children, all in our 40s now. Mostly all estranged. I have one DC and separated for two years now due marriage difficulties and my own failure in any sort of adult relationships.

I'm ashamed to say that due to my marriage failing, life is incredibly lonely again and I wish I could be back with my ExH and be a better wife so that he would want to bother with me. I'm slowly learning to form friendships, with an awareness of how alien all this is for me. I have to keep myself constantly in check to be a good mother to my DC. Also ashamed to say that I continue to have a relationship with uncaring and uninterested parents and siblings. I give a lot and try my best for DC sake of having GPs and aunts, uncles and cousins, however superficial.

Don't know why I'm posting, I'm just feeling incredibly lonely and lost.

Thanks. I’m sorry for being on a hair trigger and oversensitive but it’s just been a bad day. Weekends are shit in general and today has not only involved a long and involved tirade with several incredibly triggering things yelled at me but the cat being physically removed multiple times (her routine is basically run around then nap with me in the afternoon which I love but apparently she’s not even allowed to do that any more) an odd argument about a splash of water on a stone floor and a lot of what for the sake of brevity I’m going to call invading my territory - basically walking through my room including to empty a bucket of washing up/cleaning water into my toilet when there are four more easily accessible bathrooms and three kitchen sinks and the entire garden, also rearranging my furniture and I think taking some of my clothing but it’s hurting my chest to stand and in my current mental state I care a bit if they take my academic gown but I actually can’t imagine a future where I’ll wear them again. As an autistic person it’s put me very on edge because that’s one of my “things” - apparently that overlaps with OCD too (I was once in hospital for a physical complaint and met someone who recited her mental diagnoses and there were seventeen. My initial reaction was poor thing and then I counted mine - I did count the discredited ones too - and it was seventeen lol).

@binkie163 I apologise although I stand by my disagreement with the last part of your sentence.

@Rathersadoutside I am sorry for the loss of your marriage, particularly as it sounds like a companionship you could rely on in an otherwise isolated life.

It is NOT your fault that those who were supposed to nurture you have caused harm which makes it difficult to maintain relationships. I cling fiercely to my relationships but I’m fully aware that I must be a lot of hard work and don’t blame those who need to stay away. You’ve also probably got limited experience of good relationships overall because familial abuse is intergenerational.

You are giving your all to break the cycle of abuse. No parent is perfect but fighting against the odds makes you a heroine. In twenty years your DCs will have worked out what you were up again and be incredibly proud and grateful.

Keep reaching out to those friends. Keep reaching out on here where you will find a community of lovely and knowledgeable people. Some are more hardline about NC and I take your point about your children having a family, but how about using school as a jumping-off point where you can make friends with other mums and your children form a firm friendship network too? Even if you have to get involved with a PTA. And consider whether you may just want to reduce contact with those family members for your own sake (no reason to feel guilt either way, my boyfriend is allergic to my cat so think about that, is he a bad person to stay a good ten feet away if she’s in the room or a bad one for not smothering her with affection even if it gives him asthma and a rash) or possibly you could go really low contact so they aren’t exposed to the toxicity while maintaining some level of it through them - grandparents in particular are famously soft on their grandchildren so you can have a few heavily supervised visits or Skypes or something infrequently, let them receive presents etc but still be protecting you and them.

@CeciledeVolangesdeNouveau

I apologise that was probably mildly vehement, and you’re still welcome on here

My comment was for the 2 previous posters but appreciate your permission for me to remain on a public forum!

...you’re still welcome on here, I’m not going to escalate. I’m not cross with you and I’m sure you are lovely.

Does no one else find it completely inappropriate that one person posting on the thread sees fit to give other people permission to post? Anyone can post here unless MN deletes or bans them. Is this a form of gaslighting? I may have the terminology wrong, but it feels very off.

They don’t need my permission and I don’t control who can and can’t post. I was obviously ineptly trying to say I wasn’t trying to drive anyone out and I don’t have the power to if I wanted to or thought I could nor should I. I often express myself ineptly and cause offence by accident and binkie has taken the exact opposite meaning from the one I was intending to convey. I apologise to all concerned and am a bit confused as to whether I should be staying off this thread and whether I’m a gaslighter (if it was meant as you interpreted I’d be a bully but not a gaslighter) but I don’t want to hurt anyone. It’s not the case that I was casting myself in the role of being able to permit or deny admittance to this thread. I wanted to make it really clear I didn’t want to make anyone feel unwelcome.

To be blunt, Cecile, it doesn't matter whether you welcome a poster or not. If they are not banned by MN for rule-breaking then they are welcome here by default. There is no question of bullying afaik, but your haut en bas approach is off-putting.

It has mattered a huge amount in the past whether I feel welcome or even have permission to be somewhere online, to me. This is or was a safe space for me and has been for years. I just wanted her to keep feeling welcome here even if I was trying, clearly ineptly, to enforce a boundary.