December 2023 - So we took you to stately homes

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' back in December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.
Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society

There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be given with warmth and support

Thank you ladies, feeling a bit low about my 50th later this year after such a terrible Christmas…. but this highlights all the reasons I don’t want them there anyway.

I feel sad about it as things have deteriorated so much in the last decade, secondly my 40th was not celebrated properly as my DP did not know how to invite my family for it not to be a nightmare somehow, thirdly one of my siblings had a surprise get together for their 40th organised by their spouse a few years ago which was lovely and everyone attended. I had a nice time at it but a few hours drive home where I got sadder and sadder as I didn’t get to have that for my big birthday and because everyone was chatting about all the things they’ve met up and done without me so I sat there quietly feeling really really excluded. I’ve never been invited to a family get together since.

Not sure what to actually do to celebrate.

Hope everyone is doing okay. Hugs to all xx

@Tbry24 (what is tbry short for, I notice we have two on this thread alone and I’ve never seen it around like imho or something) also I’m only going to answer your post because it’s three in the morning and I’m rattled for reasons I will explain shortly - doesn’t mean others don’t matter or don’t have similar problems that need dealing with, my brain is on very very reduced energy and I can deal with the most recent on I can see, no offence is meant). Anyway, to Tbry24. It is really sad. Have a little grieve, cry on someone’s shoulder - literally if poss - and then be awesome and original and actually do what you want with some people you actually like! If all your friends have cats and you want to give them comfy waistcoats and give them prawns, make a day of it! If you’re a 55-year old and you want safely to try out some huge rollercoasters, go and have an amazing time! If you just want to have a coffee morning but have baked each of your friends’ favourite food so well they’re actually nearly kissing your feet and you’re just gossiping, eating and laughing for a day or even half a day, go for it. If you’re a huge fan of, say? Harry Potter book some tickets for Cursed Child -random example because I don’t know if and when/where it’s playing atm - with a couple of close friends and get a posh lunch. It doesn’t even have to be your birthday - you could have an amazing raucous celebration at a completely random moment and spend your birthday with those who are actually closest with you just sipping some tea or orange juice or taking your dachshund for a little stroll thinking proudly “I made it this far!”.
This is based off my own plans for my funeral. I’ve abused my body so thoroughly and based on my family history the things which have killed my older relatives have probably been accelerated with me (eg oesophageal cancer. I’ve been a horrific level of bulimic for fifteen years and then transferred to alcohol. I’m not just highly likely to die of it, I’m highly likely to die of it SOON and oddly that sort of lessens the sting of “if you really want to kill yourself why haven’t you don’t it properly yet” because it’s probably a case of wait a couple of years). But I have a plan for a highly weird party where at a weekend when even most of my doctor friends are free we have a party with singing the most fun hymns, the Oxbridge people can sing the most fun highbrow Anglican repertoire, we all eat some amazing food (this basically translates to everyone else having banana bread and coconut macaroons and my boyfriend just having a load of cornflakes) and then - best part - everyone is socially awkwardly nice to everyone else and we all have toasts. So I get to say “Friend wrote in a notebook twenty years ago that she thought I was a nice friend and liked penguins and didn’t know when I found it and I felt loved” and also “second friend is an incredible mother and teacher who has raised two wonderful boys and let me be able to use the London bus system even though I’m autistic and can’t read maps” and probably a bit crying with laughter “my boyfriend is twelfth best in the UK for Rubik’s cube and put it on his first CV” - it is on the CV still but just as a businesslike fact and not phrased like “if you google me, you’ll see I’m good at solving cubes fast!” Yes darling but that isn’t getting you a job phrased like that. Sorry. for example and hopefully my frankly annoying tendency to compliment people without limit will rub off on everyone and we’ll have a good afternoon. I honestly have the intention to have this party and sorry for the detailed description but find something you love and do the fuck out of it with the people you love. Also that description is very outing so please be nice and not disclose it to everyone unless you want to spread the gospel of just doing cool things at random.

@Tbry24 if you get another dog consider a rescue, a dog who hasn't had the love or family it deserves, we know that feeling. When the time comes, knowing you helped that dog have love, lessens the grief [not the loss] I fund raise for a few rescues.
For birthdays do something fabulous create great memories. I love
cirque du soleil and have traveled all over the world to see the show on birthdays.

Hi, I'm new here but hope you don't mind me venting about my mother. I'm 52 youngest of 4 children and my relationship with my mother for my whole life has been challenging, she definitely has a personality disorder of some description, she has this incredible art of bringing absolutely everything back to herself, it's to be applauded at times.

Anyway dad died in 2020 and since then things have gone from bad to worse he definitely soaked it up for us, he must have been a Saint, my father was lovely and the sadness I feel now how he really was a victim of abuse.

I've two older brothers one has excellent boundaries plus he's the golden child, the other has stopped talking to her and my sister lives miles away, so I am her whipping boy.
She is the most negative, miserable, ungrateful woman you could ever meet, she sucks all the oxygen out the room, when I turn up to see her she never says hello, how are you? Its just an immediate tirade of moaning, she has plenty of money but acts just like scrooge and pleads poverty, my dad's death is all about her grief no one else. I could go on.

The problem is I promised dad when he was dying I'd look after her, he asked me.
She is vile to me at times and looks at me with coldness, there is no love, I feel nothing also, she's just the woman who gave birth to me. She's always saying she wishes she was dead, she hates life since dad died but she said those things when he was alive! Anyway sorry its long I just felt this seemed a good place to get a little bit of what is a very large weight off my chest. Thankyou.

Welcome Bluebell.

Your story isn’t unusual but you strike me as me as a strong woman has got through some of the stately homes awfulness and could draw on our strong and wisdomy community as you continue dealing with rubbish people being rubbish.

a shit person chose to be horrible to a vulnerable one. That’s basically the origin story of 80% of stately homes.

also I am sorry to say this but your parent making you promise to do something awful was also terrible. You can’t and you owe them nothing. It’s as if I could make my little cat understand English and suddenly went “use your baby cat powers to keep my boyfriend out of mischief” when he’d be a huge angry Winnie the Pooh and she would be a tiny delicate Bengal kitten. What we all understand is that your origin story is probably going to be close to ours, you’ll come here when you need to and vent as much as you want, we can’t solve it but we are all here and all listening. Lots of love

What is this bug?! You struck me as me?!?!?!?! What??????? Soz guys. At least it made a bit of sense.

Welcome Bluebell

It sounds to me like you grew up within a narcissistic family structure. I would agree with Cecile that your father did something terrible by asking or really otherwise telling you to look after his wife before he died. He failed to protect you all from the excesses of his wife’s behaviours. Both parents here have failed you all.

You may have may a promise to him but you are now an adult with agency free to make your own choices. At the very least now you further need to lower all forms of contact with her. You owe him and your mother nothing and it’s not possible to have a relationship with someone as disordered of thinking as your mother is. Narcissists as well choose scapegoats and golden children carefully and they often choose the ‘strongest’ child to be the scapegoat for all their inherent ills. The golden child role is a role not without price either though they are often unaware of that. Consider therapy also to deal with the fear, obligation and guilt such people impose on their now adult children.

@BluebellShmoobell Ah – the burden of the deathbed promise...

I want to tell you very clearly to put that out of your mind. It is no different to being held at gunpoint and made to promise your soul to the devil.

You loved your dad very much, and of course you would have said anything to him to ease his suffering and soothe his mind as he was in his last moments on this earth. I did exactly the same. I lied when my dad looked pained and asked me if I’d had a happy childhood, and told him that of course I did. (My childhood was beyond awful.)

The “promise” you made is completely invalid. It was a kind word said by you to a dying man.

You owe your mother nothing. She brings only misery and negativity to your life. What you are experiencing is known as FOG (fear, obligation and guilt). Please look it up and learn about it.

Welcome to the gang and do hang out here and keep talking. It’s a long road to recovery and there is lots of support here. I went No Contact with my entire Family Of Origin some years ago and have never regretted it. There is life beyond dysfunctional / toxic family relationships.

@BluebellShmoobell welcome! You've found your tribe here. Lots of experience!

When you say your dad asked you to take care of your mum - is she ill or ‘just’ old? I'm guessing she's in her 70s or 80s?

I would do all that Atilla and Celine recommend you doing or thinking about.

From my experience - Mr Monkey and I have the issue of his mother aka The Hag who is similarly not ‘ageing well’ (to put it mildly) - knowing how much expert advice and support is available is good. Just knowing what's on offer for older people in your area in terms of care from charities / council etc for the eventuality of developing serious issues is a very good thing.

Women get lumbered with this shit ALL THE TIME and it always seems to be the scapegoat who is in danger of being a de facto carer.

The other element is the abusers don't, sadly, become sweet old ladies, their awful behaviour ramps up.

This reminds me to chase Monday’s email to The Hag’s social worker!

On the Hag front - all is quiet. There is a lull in the relentless phone calls to Mr Monkey and he's not ringing her “it’s pointless”.

Fingers crossed this year will have a happy ending. I don't even feel mean for writing that after the utter shit she has put us through and the dreadful abuse she doled out to her children.

Onwards!

Agree they do not get any better. I had social servies here yeterday. Not only did she go to the school about my apparent neglect but she rang them themselves and said it was an urgent matter. They came in to our lovely spotlessly clean home to find me making him homemade waffles while he sat doing homework and homemade bolognese sauce on the hob. I told them the truth that I start work around 5am so I can be full and present when he gets in from school in order to make nice meals and he clearly is clean and well taken care of. Its just so intrusive and I just cannot believe the levels she is going to but it is easier now to be no contact than it ever was before. Any guilt I felt at her being on her own is gone. She brought this on herself.

And great wisdom from @Sicario ❤️

@BluebellShmoobell the FOG is real.

I've watched Mr Monkey fight through this.

He's no longer frightened off the Hag - the fear of abusive parents pervades well beyond being a little child - he has times when he feels he ‘should’ do things for his mother and times when he feels guilty. Nothing like it was. Thanks to therapy he is now able to insert ‘my mother is abusive’ into the feelings of guilt and obligation also ‘she has done this to hersekf’ (her deliberate and calculated self-neglect), ‘my happiness is more important’, ‘she is an adult’ etc. He's read up on narcissism and abuse and now sees behaviours for what they are and he sees the manipulation. It's really helped him.

Also just because he feels ‘she’s my mum and we are a good Irish family’ he's given himself permission to say ‘fuck this, she's an abusive, horrible nightmare.’

@Genuineweddingone

They are NOT a vintage wine!

your mum has stooped to the lowest levels. You sound like an INCREDIBLE mother. Any social worker will be able to see this. Make sure there's a note on the file that your mother is abusive and has mental health issues. I can't imagine what an awful experience this is for you. Take care. Xxx

No they are more like gone off milk getting more sour by the day. Shes a fucking bitch i just cannot believe she would put my son through this. No doubt shes already playing the victim card but I dont care.

@Genuineweddingone - I consoled myself with the notion that Social Services must see this kind of thing regularly: malicious reporting by unhinged people. When they came to my house (2 social workers, both looking daggers at me when I answered the door), it was plain to see that my kids were happy as beans and that it was a happy household just as you describe.

Your mum can fuck right off. People like that are never happy, never satisfied, and will blame their miserable lives on everyone other than themselves. Good riddance to bad rubbish.

I would say it is projection on her part as she left my dad and us kids at a similar age that my son is now.

@genuine
I imagine, sadly, that SS are more than aware when reports are bogus.
I'm a great believer in giving people just enough rope to hang themselves...your mother may find herself under investigation if she continues...
Can you ask SS if you can put a comment on file/record that your mother had done this before and most likely will again?

@BluebellShmoobell I concur with the 'you owe your mother nothing' your deathbed promise was a kindness to your father, it is the job of social services to help your mother IF she is unable to cope on her own.
I learned the hard way, every kindness or helpful action to your mother will become an expectation and she will continue to be unpleasant. Dont make a rod for your own back, your are not her companion, support person or valued daughter. Oxygen thieves do not suddenly see the error of their ways, they get worse. Your siblings have distanced themselves from her, there is good reason for that, you do not have to sacrifice your life to prop her up, she wouldnt for you xx

@Genuineweddingone your mother is APALLING. I'm not sure she can do any more to you that involves officialdom, but worth asking the social workers? Definitely get it on file with the social workers. I agree, I think it's projection on her part. Awful. And that the fuckers play the victim card - of course, they do. They take NO responsibility.

Hag played the victim card over Xmas. “I'm left alone etc etc”.

Said in front of the carer when Mr Monkey actually went to her flat over Xmas from the Bed and Breakfast service from my mum in rural Cheshire. Lol. Because of Mummy Monkey’s back injury we tied her to a chair so she couldn't start running around doing stuff!

Mr Monkey reminded her how absolutely shit her behaviour was to me when she was in hospital and that I didn't want to see her let alone having her seething and causing drama at my mum’s at Xmas. Of course, she ‘couldn’t remember’ and even if she ‘did remember’ she would somehow make it my fault.

Fuck them. They deserve nothing. We are cracking on with our lives, treating our families well, not being miserable twats and all this DESPITE abuse.

Hi thanks for all the supportive replies and it's made me think alot, particularly feeling the guilt of looking after her after my dad's death.

She's 84 and as strong as an ox. But her whole life she's been dying if anyone can relate. Its's all attention, I've been ill with a rotten cold over Xmas, she can't even give me a cold, I've had texts how she's so ill with her pain and vertigo.
My dad's cancer was always about her, he never mentioned it, just got on with it but she went on and on about it and how it was affecting her.

Thankyou for allowing me to vent, my mother is truly awful, I've had to admit that and yes I've definitely got FOG particularly the guilt bit.
How do you come to terms with not liking your mother?
And do you all grieve something you've never had?
I have a beautiful relationship with my daughter thank god but when I see friends with their mothers having a lovely time with their mums, going shopping and on holidays it really hurts. It's feels like an emptiness.

@BluebellShmoobell
Yes there is a grieving for sure . It hurts no doubt about it. I struggle from swinging between thinking I am exaggerating to feeling justified in how I feel and the guilt is v hard to deal with at times.
But I guess the aim is to come to.a place of acceptance and relative peace which is much easier with low contact. I see it as a swinging pendulum with the hope that each swing is slightly less high than the previous one with the eventual hope that eventually the going backwards and forwards will cease and I will be able to lay it to rest. If that makes sense !

Have been lurking for a while and so recognise these stories. My mother has been dead for 8 years and I give thanks every day! I am now in my late 60s and for what it's worth would like to put some points forward that might be helpful to others.

1. Narcissists never change. You might feel guilty, sorry for them, feel you have a duty towards them, all of which lead you to feel that if you do enough, they will be satisfied. NO! They will not. Whatever you offer in the way of care, thoughtfulness, help, will be greedily taken in and more demanded with no thanks or appreciation.
2. Narcissists are very good at looking after Number 1. So whatever moans and groans you hear from them, never fear - they will be ok.
3. No point in trying to explain anything in a rational manner. They don't understand rationality.
4. Don't bother trying the "I feel" technique - they don't care what you feel.
5. Grey rock is the way to go ie whatever is said to you however unfair and lacking in foundation, ignore, ignore, ignore. Change the subject or walk away.
6. Find the courage to walk away. I was terrified of my mother until my 50s when I did start to leave when she started on a toxic rage and it was very liberating!

None of this is easy. We have been groomed since childhood to dance around the narcissist hoping for approval and validation. I became her little best friend, confidante, therapist and scapegoat. No wonder I was confused. Never allowed to say no, in adulthood I ended up in horrible situations with horrible people because I never had any practice in being assertive. I wasn't aware of having needs, or the right to respect, because I wasn't valued or considered. Think about the myth of Narcissus and Echo who loved him and followed him around until she faded away and vanished because he never acknowledged her, just looking at reflections of himself. We mustn't let ourselves vanish and the only way is to turn away from the perpetrator and make our own lives, hard thought that is after years of abuse.

Regarding deathbed promises, it's not the same, but in the same ballpark - My late mother in law died thinking her only son was still happily married to me...we had actually been split up for 18 months and I'd been with my new partner for a year!

Literally the same week we'd decided to split, she was diagnosed with terminal cancer. That was in the spring, no one thought she would live past Christmas of the same year...so she managed to hang on for a year longer than was expected.

I've never felt guilt at deceiving her. She wasn't a narcissist, but she was a bully and to be honest neither myself or my ex husband wanted to have to deal with the drama she would have caused if she'd known we had split. After years of saying she supported our decision not to have children, she made it pretty clear in the last month of her life that she was angry that ' I' hadn't given her grandchildren, and it was totally 'my' fault (looking back I almost wish that I'd told her that her precious son had been as keen as I was to terminate the accidental pregnancy we'd had).

We didn't tell her we'd split to be kind to her - and ourselves. I don't regret it for a moment.

@lucette1001
'Narcissists never change. You might feel guilty, sorry for them, feel you have a duty towards them, all of which lead you to feel that if you do enough, they will be satisfied. NO! They will not. Whatever you offer in the way of care, thoughtfulness, help, will be greedily taken in and more demanded with no thanks or appreciation.'

Really sums it up x

Excellent post, @lucette1001. Thank you.