Was I sexually coerced/assaulted?

[nightserum]

Previous poster - name changed

I think it can be hard to know when eventually I consented, and there was alcohol involved, and there was no rough ‘aggression’.

Someone I have been on a few dates with. Seemed very sweet and was going really well.
Both quite drunk and he came back to mine. There was some kissing, but at some stage I decided I didn’t want to take it further so I removed his hand from between my legs physically. He kept kissing me, 5-10 minutes later the hand went back, I removed it. He tried from another angle - I removed it. It probably happened four or five times in a loop. This is where I should have said ‘no, get out’ but for whatever reason I didn’t and we ended up having sex.

At the time there was no holding me down, no violence. I didn’t feel ‘scared’ per se nor did I forcibly say no. But I was never 100% into it and if he’d stopped the first time I removed his hand there would have been no sex. When I look back, it feels like I did communicate that I didn’t want to

He doesn’t seem to have seen an issue because he’s asked to see me again. I just really don’t know what to think and feel very strange about the whole thing. Advice appreciated

Yes, you were definitely coerced/assaulted. Consent should be freely and enthusiastically given. You were giving signals that you wanted it to stop and he ignored them. Alcohol is no excuse, in fact it makes his behaviour worse because you were less able to consent and advocate for yourself.

Do not see this man again, he has shown a lack of respect for you and he will behave like this again. You deserve better. I'm so sorry this has happened to you, keep talking about it to help you process it.

Also, do not blame yourself - this is all on him being a sexually entitled, arrogant prick.

Yes this was very wrong of him to continue overstepping your boundaries after you repeatedly refused consent through your actions.

Please don't see him again. That's the advice I'd give.

I'm so, so sorry that this happened to you.

Thank you everyone.

It's funny how our brains block things out isn't it. I've felt uneasy about him on a low level since, but couldn't put my finger on why.

I've been single so long and I'd seen so much potential that I just think my brain didn't wanna see - id just gone 'ahhh well all men are persistent aren't they'
Then I went to my mums and she was watching Emmerdale. There's a storyline about rape at the moment. It was like the smoke had suddenly cleared and now I can't stop thinking about it 😣 the low level unease has been fear and disgust. I just didn't know how to identify it

I won't be seeing him again

Block, delete, forget this tosser.

I was ridiculed on another thread when I said that I never go back to a guy’s flat / invite him back to my flat after only a few dates and was told “NAMALT”, what about the good guys, blah blah blah.

Women have every right to be wary of strangers, particularly men.

I’m sorry to say but I think a lot of women have had this experience. I just chalk it up to not being drunk and inviting men to my house unless I’m wanting sex.

Yup, happened to me when I was 26. Went to his house after the 3rd date with no intention to have sex as I wasn’t ready to, and although we didnt end up having full sex, he completely ignored my boundaries.

Learned my lesson - never again. Going to a stranger’s house alone is not a risk-free activity, let’s not kid ourselves that is. I am not prepared to take that risk again - it’s as simple as that.

Anyone who throws ‘NAMALT’ in my face is not living in the real world.

It’s not ok.

Men think it’s ok and that they have successfully persuaded you to want sex with them.

We need to tell them that giving in to sex after several ‘no's’ is not truly consensual and they needs to think hard about whether they are a ‘good guy’.

Can you tell him, OP?

And this doesn’t only happen in stranger’s houses, or with unfamiliar men, so that’s a red herring.

Can you tell him, OP?

It is not OP’s responsibility to educate this dickhead.

It is her responsibility to keep herself safe and to not put herself in a similar situation going forward.

I had it on holiday when I was in a nightclub drinking and some man approached me and kept asking me to go back to his, I said no several times but my friends kept pushing me to go with him and kept telling me go go, even though I clearly didn’t want to. I had been drinking and he said we was just going back to get something obviously when we got there he had sex with me, I still feel angry about it now but I blame myself for getting so drunk and going back with him. Not saying that’s how anyone else should feel or anyone else should blame themselves just how I fell and just that I don’t see it as sexual assault or rape personally and it’s happened to a lot of women I just put it down as a mistake and learn from it rather than sexual assault.

Yeah I definitely won't be getting drunk on another date. I've learnt that from the whole thing.

The thing is when I invited him back I was open to sex. It was just that by the time he instigated kissing/touching something didn't feel right. So I changed my mind and tried to stop things progressing further.

I'm now going to struggle in terms of how to proceed in future, because I can't know for sure when I decide to go home with someone that I 100% won't have a change of heart ☹️ and I don't want to feel like this again

@pickledandpuzzled I did wonder whether to tell him when he asks me why I don't want to see him again.

Because I see it from the same perspective. He probably now just thinks he successfully 'persuaded' me and that it was consensual - nothing wrong with the badgering kinda thing.

When actually he needs to know that if someone says no the first time he should stop and let them lead the way.

But the other part of me thinks surely he should know this. Surely he knows it's wrong and why should it be me who opens myself up to backlash

OP - of course you shouldn't see him again if he gives you those niggling feelings.
And you shouldn’t blame yourself.
But I do think this is a bit if a grey area and joint responsibility does apply.

I also think you need to learn from this.

And either watch your alcohol a bit more - or be firmer when communicating NO.

Just pushing the hand away,
while continuing does send a wrong message. And both participants have the same responsibility for communicating.

At the time of actual sex commencing - unless you say STOP - you have consented.
Responsibility can not just be with another person reading your mind. (as you described the episode - there was no force or fear involved)

For me, I wait until i definitely want to go all the way. I also limit my dating to men I fancy the pants off and it’s a struggle to make myself wait a few dates. I’m ruthless when it comes to red flags - the faintest hint of creepiness or trying to sexualise the conversation early on and they’re OUT.

I very rarely get drunk (ever - not just on dates) so there’s no risk of judgement being impaired that way.

I’ve also bolstered up my boundaries and assertiveness and have no qualms telling men to f* off. I used to be such a people pleaser, it was embarrassing.

That’s just my personal approach. But the main thing for me is that I see my safety as my responsibility and don’t rely on other people (especially men) being ‘good guys’.

Best to assume that going to someone's house means sex. Always did IME with OLD, so if not up for it, don't go and vice versa.
A lot can be put down to the drink too, so another rule to go by is don't get drunk with someone, until you know them really well.
Coercion, and pestering for sex never ok, but happens alot, within marriage too. You are not alone and most women have probably experienced this at some point.

Rubbish! OP is not responsible for his refusal to accept her boundaries. This is victim-blaming.

The absence of the word STOP does not mean that she consented, ffs. She clearly did not consent, but went along with it because women do for various reasons; including fear of escalating force, the socialisation to meet other people's needs/not cause a scene and lack of autonomy over our own bodies. It's really complex.

He was wrong.

It's very, very sad that women have to alter their behaviour (e.g. stay sober, avoid certain situations) because some men are entitled shits. Often we do choose to do these things after bad experiences, but that in no way makes those options right or our fault if we don't do them. The bad behaviour sits firmly with the man here.

"...but at some stage I decided I didn’t want to take it further so I removed his hand from between my legs physically. He kept kissing me, 5-10 minutes later the hand went back, I removed it. He tried from another angle - I removed it. It probably happened four or five times in a loop."

erm possibly this...?

It's very, very sad that women have to alter their behaviour (e.g. stay sober, avoid certain situations) because some men are entitled shits. Often we do choose to do these things after bad experiences, but that in no way makes those options right or our fault if we don't do them. The bad behaviour sits firmly with the man here.

Well, of course.

But the above could be said about any crime. It’s very sad that we have to lock our cars and front doors lest we be burgled. It’s very sad we can’t let young children play in a park unsupervised lest they be kidnapped. It’s very sad we can’t leave our handbag unattended in a public place lest we get robbed.

We all alter our behaviour every day to keep ourselves safe because we do not live in a perfect, crime-free world.

Of course it is 100% the criminal’s fault when a crime occurs, but there are sensible steps we can take to reduce the chance of getting hurt.

We need to live in the world we have, not the one we wish we had.

Sad to still see comments that are trying to blame the woman in this case...

• the fact that you were drunk means that to some degree you were incapacitated with makes it harder to push back/articulate what you wanted at the time
• but you did remove his hands several times to show you were not interested in taking things further.

Yet he ignored all of this. Any decent guy would have stopped because you were too drunk to really know what was happening and you had pushed him away several times.

Cut all contacts with this man.

Really sorry this happened to you.

From some of the replies we really need to continue educating men and women on what consent actually means...

I think I was potentially coerced because after I removed his hand, I turned away and went to watch the TV. I didn't instigate any escalation or kissing after that.

He waited a few minutes then turned my face back towards him and started kissing me again - which I was okay with. There have been plenty of times in the past where kissing was just kissing and it didn't have to lead to anything.

I didn't touch him anywhere sexual and the first time, I thought I had communicated enough by removing his hand and turning away. When he went to touch me again, he did so from the front - I removed his hand. I turned my whole body around, so I had my back to him, and then he reached over from behind me to try to do it from there. I removed his hand again and obviously there was no kissing as I was facing away.

The cycle then repeated and in the end I just went along with it. Not because I wanted to really but because in the moment it felt easier to. I know I should've said no forcefully but for some reason I couldn't

I wasn't sure so that's why I asked here

Ignore the ignorant posters who are suggesting that you are somehow at fault - there is so much classic victim blaming on here.

You did nothing wrong by getting drunk - he chose to take advantage of you being more vulnerable. You did nothing wrong in inviting him back even if you did so because you initially wanted sex - you are allowed to change your mind about whether you want it. You did nothing wrong in pushing him away repeatedly rather than loudly saying no - he should know what that means - it’s not asking him to read your mind, you were actively trying to stop him.

I do think that some men have been socialised to believe that if they persist and a women eventually succumbs then that is somehow consent. Men should be seeking enthusiastic consent, not bare acquiescence and anyone who doesn’t, you should swerve.

I agree with others that you should not see him again. If he asks why and you feel comfortable doing so, then tell him. If you don’t feel comfortable, don’t tell him. Do whatever is best for you.

Best of luck OP.

I don’t care how many consent classes a man has been given, it’s my right to not trust him if he is a stranger.

Do people think a few consent classes is really going to protect women from predatory men?

Feel free to take the risk (as we all are in a free society), but I won’t be stopping taking precautions while dating on the back of ‘consent classes’, thank you very much.