Was I sexually coerced/assaulted?

[nightserum]

Previous poster - name changed

I think it can be hard to know when eventually I consented, and there was alcohol involved, and there was no rough ‘aggression’.

Someone I have been on a few dates with. Seemed very sweet and was going really well.
Both quite drunk and he came back to mine. There was some kissing, but at some stage I decided I didn’t want to take it further so I removed his hand from between my legs physically. He kept kissing me, 5-10 minutes later the hand went back, I removed it. He tried from another angle - I removed it. It probably happened four or five times in a loop. This is where I should have said ‘no, get out’ but for whatever reason I didn’t and we ended up having sex.

At the time there was no holding me down, no violence. I didn’t feel ‘scared’ per se nor did I forcibly say no. But I was never 100% into it and if he’d stopped the first time I removed his hand there would have been no sex. When I look back, it feels like I did communicate that I didn’t want to

He doesn’t seem to have seen an issue because he’s asked to see me again. I just really don’t know what to think and feel very strange about the whole thing. Advice appreciated

Yes I take the point that I should make sure I'm sober - this will be the first and last time I ever get drunk with someone before I properly know them.

The thing I'm struggling with most is the idea that he was a stranger so I shouldn't have invited him back. I cannot express enough how good things were before this happened- absolutely zero red flags. Seemed so sweet and caring. Hadn't even mentioned sex. Certainly not a 'fuckboy' type.

Surely even if I'd waited until the 10th, 20th, 30th date and felt like I knew him better, he still would've felt entitled to be this way

@IdealisticCynic thank you x

I think this situation in itself is a little grey, because there was no clear "No" or "Stop" and you did continue snogging him, so he probably thought he was ok to proceed.

It reminds me of the fable "The Fox and the Scorpion". You can't inherently change the nature and sex drive of men. Of course, NAMALT, but let's get real, most men will persist if they think they are on a path to getting their leg over. And the main thing is, if you don't know the man, you don't know whether you've gone home with a teddy bear or Ted Bundy.

I would concur with PP, unless you are 100% definitely up for sex, do not get into a situation whereby you are alone (and half way to sex with) a man who you hardly know. Anything could happen.

I say this as someone who did do this in my youth : I had a one night stand with a man. All good. Woke up the next morning and found an axe collection hanging in his hallway. I shudder to think what could have happened if he hadn't been a nice guy.

Men will think you’ve consented in you eventually give in, sorry but they will. I don’t think that will ever change. There was no force and you could have left but didn’t and carried on kissing him so to him he does reasonably believe you consented. Some men believe women like to “play hard to get” so they don’t appear like they sleep with all men quickly even if they want to so he probably thought that’s what was happening.

@Opentooffers that suggests you never go to anyone’s house until you are ready for sex, and when you get there they can be an arsehole and you still have to have sex with them?’!!

Someone on here was told they shouldn’t have gone for a walk with a guy if they didn’t want sex.

Honestly the bar is dragging along the ground here.

@nightserum I know you don’t want comeback. You think he thinks it’s ok because he’s been in touch. Do you want him to think it’s ok? It’s not your job to educate him. I think I’d want to puncture his self image as a nice guy!

You could suggest he google enthusiastic consent.

I think the only way round it is to take longer to get to know someone before you invite them to yours/go back to theirs. It’s not foolproof, nothing is, but I think the longer you know someone the better chance you have of knowing for certain whether you want to sleep with them or not.

This is in response to how to proceed in the future and I am not in any way blaming you for what happened to you. One “no” is enough for a man of integrity. I’m sorry that happened to you.

Sorry this happened to you, OP. I really am.

And in case you were wondering why you 'went along with it' rather than explicitly saying no, please be gentle to yourself.
We have very strong surivival mechanisms, and these jump into action spontaneously.
FIGHT, FLIGHT and FREEZE.
There was a study recently about victims of sexual assault. Women who fought harder, were also more likely to be seriously injured, more heavily traumatized or even killed during the assault. Fighting back hardly reduced the odds of being sexually assaulted.
Sometimes our subconcious knows this, and knows that giving a clear boundary in a situation where you can't enforce that boundary is pointless (you were alone with him, no one to help you, no witnessess) and it may be better for your survival to just go along with it.

This is exactly why these kinds of things happen to so many women. Psychologically it's a lot easier to stomach the thought of letting yourself get pressured into sex when you weren't really into it yet, than it is to overcome the trauma of being forced after explicitly saying no. It's self-preservation.

There’s a low level of coercion that can go on that arises out of a sense of male entitlement. From ‘do I not get a little kiss?’ and ‘give us a cuddle’ and ‘are you going to send me home again?’ (all of which have been said to me at the third date stage - NAMALT but three different men), you really need iron clad boundaries, a clear head, sobriety, and a get-out to just withstand the pressure. You’re allowed to be attracted to someone and to fancy a bit of kissing without feeling compromised - in reality, there is huge expectation on women to control the whole interaction which is exhausting and tbh fraught with a bit of peril. I’m not surprised the poor OP is retrospectively seeing this interaction for what it was. 💐

It need not be exhausting - don’t build it up too much in your head.

”do I not get a little kiss?”
”no”

”give us a cuddle”
”I don’t think so”

“are you going to send me home again?”
”yes”

And there’s no obligation to see a man for further dates if you’re not interested either.

Dating should be fun, light-hearted, exciting, mutually respectful. If it isn’t these things, ditch and move on.

This is exactly how I feel. I know in an ideal world I should've been sober, that I should've said 'I don't want to have sex. It's probably best if you go home'

But things had been going so well previously and he'd seemed so genuine that after the first time I removed his hand, I thought it was 'safe' to let him kiss me again - because I'd already effectively set my boundary and said no. And there'd been so many scenarios previously with other men where there had just been kissing and nothing else.

I don't really know why I froze after this but I definitely wasn't an active participant - kind of just lay there

It's a very sad state of affairs that some men think they can behave in this way. I can't imagine a situation where I would want sex with someone who had rejected me even once

This makes sense.

I didn't necessarily feel full of terror at the time, but then I have always been good at compartmentalizing in a catastrophe. 'Let it happen, stay calm' kinda thing. I don't remember thinking anything or making any decisions, just lying there. Letting it wash over me.

I really regret that

It sounds to me like you went into FREEZE
As contradictory as it sounds, I think your subconcious made the best decision it could at the time. It chose to protect you from any further harm.

As hard as it is, try to be gentle and understanding towards yourself. You did what so many women do all the time. It's basic human instinct.
I'm a therapist myself and have worked with many women who have gone through these kinds of experiences. If you find yourself reliving that moment or notice your thoughts going back and forth several times a day, I would advise you to get some help for yourself. It can be helpful to have someone around who can take away any guilt or shame, should it occur.

I think dwelling on what happened is not helpful - it was not your fault.

You need to learn the lessons, look ahead and be wiser in the future. Good luck :)

(And obvs don’t go back and contact this pig, as some have suggested!)

This is nonsense. Women are often coerced into sex for lots of reasons and I’ve never seen it written anywhere that you have to say STOP. What if the woman is too drunk to be aware of what is happening, or she is frightened, or she feels she has to give in and so on? Pushing someone’s hand away repeatedly is a good indication that someone doesn’t want sex.

He wasn’t a stranger he’s a guy you’re dating. There’s always going to be the first time you’re alone and sexual together. Whether it’s 6 days, 6 months, 6 years - it’s only at that point you really see what a man is like sexually.

This guy is pushy and it’s just as well you didn’t waste more time finding that out.

OP was not too drunk to be aware what was happening. Neither was she frightened, by het own account.

We have to be responsible for ourselves - and I think - this is a clear example of grey zone and confused messaging.
If you move the hand - and he stops at the moment - he heard you and stopped.
But he is not in OP’s head - so he doesn’t know if it’s ‘Not now’ vs ‘Not tonight’.

OP herself didn’t know when she invited him over wither she wanted to have sex or not. And so she did sent mixed signals.

OP - you are OK with snogging/touching/etc restarting after you stopped it previously - it is not unreasonable to assume it was a pause - not a NO.

We can all blame him - that bit is easy. He was persistent - and overly so.
But this was not an assault.
OP - he stopped every time you pushed his hand away.

Women do need to be clear and assert themselves. This is not about all men ate like this or that. Or world is unfair. It is common sense that we use in all other areas of our lives - relationships are no different.

This is not victim blaming as there ua no victim. OP is regretting having sex that night - that much is clear. But it doesn’t automatically make her a victim. We can regret our choices, it happens.

I don't really know why I froze after this but I definitely wasn't an active participant - kind of just lay there

It's a very sad state of affairs that some men think they can behave in this way.

I agree. But at the same time women do also need to learn to be assertive, not freeze and go passive.

But if it happens again no doubt you will be firmer and more resolute next time.

WTAF is this poster on? 😳

Pushing a hand between your legs away, REPEATEDLY and carrying on kissing is consent to carry on kissing, nothing more. Although subsequent updates show she didn't even carry on kissing and turned away from him.

OP: my first time having sex was like this. I was drunk, fancied the gut but young and naive I thought this was the beginning of a wonderful romance. We kissed and I said good night. He carried on, I stopped, said I'd had a wonderful time but it was time for him to go home now and I'd see him again. He carried on. I made the decision to go to bed with him (dressed, not intending to have sex) because I couldn't seem to get rid of him politely and I reasoned "that was better than being raped". In bed I pushed him away multiple times, said let's just sleep, but he persisted until I decided to "consent" because I didn't see any way to get him to agree to stop.

It was coerced, just like what you are describing.

Yes it was coercion and assault.

We know that men are women's natural predators and our defense mechanisms kick in by instinct to avoid being harmed, unalived by them.

It's like, let me have sex with you or I have the power to hurt you very badly.

Of course we should be able to move freely in society and not fear interactions with men but the reality is different

I can see opinions on this are somewhat split.

I'd like to clarify that I have no intention of taking any action, telling others etc.

I just couldn't work out why I felt so uneasy around the situation, or whether I should see him again. The thread has been really helpful in determining that I shouldn't because whether he was confused and I misled him (as is the opinion of some posters), or he's sexually coercive (as is the opinion of others), he certainly is very pushy. I've never been involved with someone who has pushed and pushed after I've expressed unwillingness before, and I don't intend to start now. Thanks everyone for the advice

That’s a very mature approach, OP.

Onwards and upwards on your dating journey!

https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/rape-and-sexual-offences-annex-tackling-rape-myths-and-stereotypes

Have a look at CPS website on rape myths and consent, you will find it useful

Consent should be enthusiastic otherwise it's not really consent.

You felt uncomfortable/uneasy because he was pushy and forceful. Forceful doesn't just mean physical force but constant touching/groping/not taking NO for an answer. While your situation wouldn't meet the legal burden for CPS to charge him, he still violated your boundaries. You are also right that he would have done the same had it been the 1st, 20th, 100th date - whether you were drunk or not.

I have encountered 1 man like this. Had a few dates, really nice, normal guy that I met through work, very gentlemanly, even met his friends who were lovely. The first and second times we had sex, it was absolutely fine, even when we were pretty drunk. The second time he tried to have anal sex with me while I was half asleep, which I had never expressed an interest in. Also I was clearly not in a place to consent. Fortunately despite being drunk I was able to firmly say no and push him off before it could happen (he didn't even have a condom on, ugh). And he took the hint and stopped. But I was so creeped out by his behaviour, I blocked him and never saw him again.

While legally it wouldn't count for much, I know he was a boundary crosser like your man. Regards how you deal with it for the future - like a previous poster said, always know your safe drinking limits so you are never incapacitated and have the ability to say NO/push someone off. Getting drunk is ok, but not if you get weak/sleepy/blackout or are unable to consent. Unless a man is at risk of getting violent, always say a loud/firm NO - if they aren't heeding, exit quickly or call for help when it's safe. And reprogram your mind to not feel you have to give in to badgering/persisting to keep a man. It's ok to disappoint men. Always always always trust your gut. You can say NO at any time - just because you're naked with a bloke, doesn't mean sex is predetermined.

To put your mind at ease - I have had a lot of casual sex with different partners, and a fair number of one night stands when dating - he was the only creep I encountered. So don't go on every date expecting creepy behaviour or being fearful - just take sensible precautions and never ignore any signs of controlling or misogynistic behaviour, no matter how subtle. Rape statistics also say most rapes occur in the victims' home, so I don't think it makes much difference if you go back to yours or theirs, do whatever you're most comfortable with. When I dating I preferred going back to their first so I could see their space to learn more about them, and also didn't want them knowing where I lived till i knew more about them from their home.

Sorry this happened to you but it's great that you can see why this guy was a wrong un and aren't a few years deep into a relationship with him!