Flirting/emotional affair

[User101223]

Another of these bloody threads.

Together for 10 years, married for 4. Toddler and a baby. I have high-risk pregnancies, previous losses. Baby is a few months old and we've not had sex since they arrived. Not that unusual as we didn't have sex at this stage with older child but I've been feeling guilty. I'm BF so libido is low, baby doesn't sleep well, not much time or energy.

A hug this afternoon led to me apologising for the lack of sex. He said it was ok as he wasn't ready yet. I asked him what he meant, asked if it was that he didn't find me attractive anymore, or was he traumatised by the birth, or because I was BF. All no, he cared about me, I'm beautiful etc. I asked him if he was having an affair and he said no. I told him to please tell me what he meant as I was fearing the worst and he said he wouldn't tell me today.

So the day goes on and when I finally get the baby to sleep I asked him to tell me exactly what he meant. After much silence he eventually tells me he flirted with someone and felt if we had sex that I wasn't able to consent with full knowledge. He confessed that about a year ago he was struggling with masturbating a lot and it was difficult because I was very nauseous and touched out, pregnant over Christmas, not allowed to have sex on consultant orders etc. He met with a friend who was struggling emotionally and a hug he gave in support turned into a cuddle. He denies kissing her but says they got 'handsy'. He met her 5 or so more times and on at least one other occasion the same happened. She tried to kiss him and he turned her down.

I made him tell me who it was and they know he is married. She even came to our fucking wedding. I'm so bloody angry as I remember a couple of times he told me he was going to see her late at night because she was upset and I asked him not to go because I knew she was vulnerable and I didn't think it a wise position for either of them to be in. I am so furious that he ignored me. I have been taken for such a fool as I basically tried to warn him and he did it anyway.

What the fuck do I do? Leave him and destroy my children's family unit, or stay and never be able to trust him again?

He is on the sofa which means I'm doing all nightwakings on my own too. Selfish bastard.

I'd go to her house myself and ask her what's going on

I just wanted to say if I was you and you did decide to leave him, I would not be doing the whole swapping houses thing, he chose to do this he suffers the consequences whatever you choose to make them.
I would let him take my kids out for the day at the weekend and he could come around Christmas morning and watch them open their presents ect and I might even be polite enough to have him there for dinner for the children's sake.
But he would not be having them overnight and he would not be sharing them at Christmas, if his parents lived near enough he could take them to their house on Boxing Day and bring them back in the evening. He would not be calling the shots on what he gets to do with them, he lost that right in my eyes. X

@User101223, he really is a disgusting specimen — obsessively
love-bombing OW and lapping up her attention while treating your marriage, pregnancy, and newborn baby with utter contempt and callous disregard.

They possibly stopped short of full sex 🤔, but does that matter when other options were indulged in? He already admitted to inappropriate touching, so her comment that ‘nothing happened’ likely refers to PIV, as some people don’t see foreplay as counting.

What is truly sickening is his prioritizing and heavily investing in OW during your high risk pregnancy and after the birth of your baby, whose existence he avoided announcing because he didn’t want to risk losing access to her and their adventure. Leaving you and the little ones late at night to rendezvous with his girlfriend was beyond the pale.

I wouldn’t be able to look at him and certainly wouldn’t believe a word he says.

Self-care/enjoying your babies is what you need right now. Get through the holidays and make your decisions afterward. Perhaps IC can help you gain clarity.

Have you talked about marriage counselling? What are his thoughts?

I really don’t know what to say reading that update. It absolutely breaks my heart that he’d be so utterly disregarding of you and your pregnancy/newborn and small child, to leave you in the middle of the night for his dopamine hits, his validation kibbles.

You have so much to process there. He has put you at risk sexually, physically and emotionally and that will take a long time and most likely individual counselling to unpick.

You must be in a world of pain and being the best mum you can to such small children will be exhausting you.

I am glad you read the messages though (although I know from painful experience how hard that is), write down any questions you have and get a clear timeline. If you decide to reconcile you need to know exactly what you’re dealing with.

I am not here to tell you to LTB, I did not, but I did not reconcile from an affair that involved this level of deceit and risk to myself, pregnancies and newborns (and my husband was absolutely awful)!

Advice still stands, get an accurate timeline. Use the surviving infidelity 180 strategy to gain space, or even better grey rock him, talk children and finances only. Keep him at a distance and watch.

And then work on self healing, journal, cry, rage when you need to, seek support (be aware trauma/ptsd is a real thing in betrayed) counselling would be really good right now.

Whatever you do DO NOT do couples counselling. Infidelity is rarely appropriately challenged there, it often aligns with the ‘needs met’ model which is just victim blaming bs! Always heal yourself first then when you’re strong you can consider that.

Getting yourself a copy of ‘leave a cheater gain a life’ would be a good idea. Whether you choose long term to stay or go, it really helps frame thinking on cheating in the right way and moves you away from ‘what might I have done wrong?’. Cheating is ALWAYS the fault of the cheat.

Keep posting.

As susie says this is not your fault.

Unmet needs theory is tosh. You can’t instill the values of honesty, integrity and faithfulness into someone by cooking them bangers and mash, watching the football and oral sex every Tuesday - it makes no sense!

We are not powerful enough to control someone else and that is what unmet needs theory suggests. We do x and they won’t do y.

Also how does cheating help unmet needs in your marriage? You need for honesty and reliability hasn’t been met. How would shagging the postman help (he’s always on time and never steals the post).

Marriage counselling may help eventually but this is a husband problem. He needs to look at why he chose to break his own vows. Why does he say commitment, loyalty and fidelity was important but not important when no one is watching?

Hope you are okay op.

When I ask why he did it he doesn't know. He doesn't say there was anything missing from our relationship. Says its not my fault. Says I didn't do anything to push him away.

I told him I wasn't going to do couples therapy until he had sorted his own shirt out. That as far as I was concerned we were happy, the baby was planned, and I was managing my mental health much better - I had CBT in my 2nd pregnancy and then counselling when he was 6 months old to process the trauma of losing our first baby. But this time around apart from a little blip last Christmas I was doing really well. So the only thing missing was sex, and he knew the reason. And I was trying to meet his needs in ways other than PIV.

He said the places he looked won't do relationship counselling with only one party but will do sex counselling separately first. But he then denies there being issues with our sex life prior to this (bar pregnancy). I told him he needs his own counselling first and he said yes. But he said that he was looking at that on Sunday and he's not done anything further.

He’s wrestled with his conscience and decided to only admit to so much. I’ve been there, OP, and it has totally coloured my memories of when my youngest was newborn and how unsupported I felt then. It absolutely hollows you out. I was like a zombie from shock trying to hold it all together on very little sleep with tiny dependents needing so much care. And very predictable that you aren’t allowed to be upset of angry without him turning on the tears too.

@Copperoliverbear He wouldn't get them overnight as the baby is exclusively breastfeeding. Also they don't sleep so he wouldn't be keen. His family are 4+ hours away so grandparents just wouldn't see them.

I find the Surviving Infidelity chat so overwhelming. It's full of these awful stories of cheating partners and I read then and think how sad that so many people care so little for the people they promised to love. And then I read some horrific stuff and think that what I'm going through is nothing compared to some and just feel depressed about the whole thing.

@Susieb2023 @MsDogLady I'm willing to explore counselling for me again. But I know that last time I needed to be fully ready for it. And I don't want to feed into a narrative that there's something wrong with me and its my fault it happened.

He needs to book counselling for himself separately and show willing.

You need to book counselling for yourself and it is nothing to do with anything being wrong with you, its for support and having someone in your corner. Talking through all the hurt and pain with someone who can help without judgement.

We ended up having couples counselling and I found it very helpful, there was no mention of unmet needs. I may have just got lucky as the therapist was amazingly supportive.

You are doing so well, even if you think you aren't. You are. Just getting out of bed everyday is an achievement after these things hit you.

@User101223 my H had an emotional affair many years ago and I found out 10 years after it happened. It may have been more, I don't know and unlikely to find out. He too couldn't say why it happened, I think it's often simple flattery usually by an attractive person. , in my case it was a young attractive and intelligent 'nice' woman and he was 40 - we had business issues and his mum was dying and she was working for us - I think he used it as an emotional escape. I was absolutely devastated when I found out - and these days I'm far less co dependent, probably much harder. He was adamant that it was nothing lacking in me- more something lacking in him at that time. I've never felt 100% the same though to be honest.

@allwedoistry is correct about the purpose of individual counseling for you. This would be a source of positive support as you move through the grief process — a safe place to express your feelings and organize your thoughts as you make decisions.

Apart from looking at the messages on his phone that he has had ample time to comb through and delete incriminating ones have you done any other digging? Any emails? FB messages? That sort of thing?

Trust has gone. It's finished.

The thing that stood out to me is that he knew you were struggling but instead of supporting you he felt the need to support her instead .

Whether he has or hasn't done more ,he's overstepped the line and it's clear she likes him so he shouldnt still be communicating with her , you should be his priority.

I'm sorry you're dealing with this. I know how it feels because my husband had an affair last year. The only reason I allowed him to stay is that he's been completely transparent since disclosure. I have access to his phone and he wrote me a timeline. He's also in therapy to get to bottom of why he allowed himself to make those choices (it's never really about the marriage or the spouse). He's also read all the usually recommended books.

What he admitted to early on in reconciliation is combing through their message thread and deleting about 20% of them (any direct ref to sex etc). I would bet a large amount of money that your husband has done the same.

Think carefully about your conditions for allowing him to stay for now, if that's what you choose. As a minimum, mine were no contact with OW (block and delete), full access to phone, timeline, tracking app, weekly therapy for him. I've given him a year to demonstrate significant progress on his underlying issues and provide me with a full account of why this happened.

Take your time. It's a trauma and we don't make our best decisions when we're in shock.

@Ihaveoflate I've told him I won't make any long term decision right now. But have allowed him to stay to reduce disruption to the kids. I've also told him to sort counselling and he had looked someone up but hasn't booked yet. I know he will try to put it off, particularly if I show any sign of softening as he will think it unnecessary.

He has now blocked her and deleted but only because I told him he had to. He sent a message saying it was a mistake and he wanted to fix our marriage and she had responded saying nothing happened so she doesn’t want to be seen as the bad guy. She said it was just a friendship unless he was the one with feelings for her. But although she hadn't always reciprocated the messages she just invited him over instead. He said she was the one to initiate anything physical.
There were only a couple of messages deleted from the thread. Some were clearly sexual/suggestive because he then apologises or says he's being cheeky or had too much to drink. I could read emails if I wanted to as I know his password but I don't think I have it in me right now if there is anything there.

Today we took the baby to an appointment (near where she works) and after I did the shopping and he walked home. But when I got to the shops I had this moment of panic that I'd just played into their hands so I got him to send a location tracker thing. He has said he will do that and share his full schedule but I don't know if I can cope with a relationship with that little trust. Do you even have apps that show where you've been? As it was always when I was asleep.

@User101223

We use Life360 and as long as you keep your phone data switched on, it tracks all your movements. It drains the battery a bit but I find it useful. I barely look at it but I know it's there for accountability.

Tbh I don't worry about him doing anything like this again. If he's going to cheat again he'll find a way. The important thing is that I trust myself. Never again will I ignore gut feelings or allow myself to be gas lit. Any more lies of any sort would be instant divorce for me and he knows it.

This first year has been a rollercoaster. Expect anger to set in at some point - it took me by surprise after the shock wore off.

The bit I found the hardest was the couple of weeks after my baby was born and he hasn't even told her, and then like week 3 he sends a photo of him holding the baby saying he can't get away and then an hour or so later he does go. He leaves his exhausted wife with a toddler and a newborn to see another woman.

I have a baby around that age now OP and this has made me cry. What an utter arsehole. Truly cruel. At your most vulnerable time, he betrayed you and in such a flippant way blaming your beautiful little baby for holding him up. How dare he. Jesus. I would never, ever get over the contempt that would make me feel for him. I wish I could give you a big hug, I'm so sorry this has happened.

I’m quoting my own post here just to give continuity. My own experience was that I insisted we attend counselling. I went on my own to help process and articulate my thoughts, then we went to a couples counselling for a number of months. This was all when my youngest was under one. We separated subsequently. I had thought that jointly we could work things through, and I falsely believed we did. He secretly resumed the relationship, and when I found it, it was instantly over. I invested that extra year thinking it was a rescue mission; with hindsight I was the one frantically paddling with one oar.

Nearly a decade later, I stand over the decisions I made, which were made in good faith, but it was the most damaging time of my life, and it took me a very long time to get back on my feet.

I say this not to provoke you to LTB but to give my best-intentioned advice that a man who has played away when his partner is at her most vulnerable and when his children are tiny is unscrupulous and ice cold, and staying with him will corrode every shred of your being.

It never leaves you, the feeling of betrayal. The earlier you act on this, the more quickly in the longterm you will recover your strength and sense of self. You can Google the ‘sunk cost fallacy.’ You could, if you wish, read endless blogs on ‘why did he do this?’ but the reason is immaterial when you have a better life to live, and the sooner you grasp this, the sooner you start your journey to independence and personal security. I deeply feel for you, and I wish you every bit of courage and self-belief 💐

@Ihaveoflate ‘Tbh I don't worry about him doing anything like this again. If he's going to cheat again he'll find a way. The important thing is that I trust myself. Never again will I ignore gut feelings or allow myself to be gas lit. Any more lies of any sort would be instant divorce for me and he knows it.’

If anyone decides to reconcile then this truly is the healing message! I completely and utterly agree with every word. I will never have blind faith in anyone again but I have learnt that my feelings come first and I trust myself to respond to them immediately instead of putting my love for a romantic partner before them. I have no tracker on my phone and I don’t look at his AT ALL! I do not control him. He controls himself if he wants to stay with me.

@User101223 one thing I learnt about trust is it can be rebuilt but the person who broke the trust has to use consistent actions over a long LONG time to do this. It’s like filling a bucket drop by drop.

His actions are everything right now, transparency, honesty and falling through with ever promise he makes is vital.

How to help my spouse heal from my affair is a really fantastic book. It’s not long and will give him a road map into how to be a safer partner for you. There are some great videos on the affair recovery website as well. Surviving Infidelity has a wayward forum and the posters there are harsh but have been in your husbands shoes.

If you are considering reconciliation it is important to be as well read as possible in it so you can be as safe as possible.