If you tell a parent they have upset you and they get really shitty, what do you do?!

[bohemianbint]

It started innocuously enough last night, was talking to my mum on the phone and at the end of the conversation I said that I know she was probably trying to help but I was a bit upset that she cut my son's hair on Saturday without asking.

She got really arsey and said that it was ridiculous and as I seem desperate to have a go at her all the time (I had to speak to her just after Christmas because she told everyone in the world I was pregnant when we'd asked for it to be kept quiet) that she just "wouldn't do anything with DS ever again."

I was really expecting that and it really shocked and upset me. They've done lots of things since DS was born 19 months ago that have really upset me, and I've never said anything to them about it. Specifically they really pressured me to stop breastfeeding and constantly went on about how it wasn't sufficient, was disgusting and wasn't worth the bother when formula is "just as good", they went on at me because I wouldn't leave him to cry from day one and eventually told me that as I was isolating everyone and not taking advice that everyone would leave me to it.

The upshot of the conversation was that my mum got really angry and defensive and either denied that things I mentioned had ever happened, or told me I was "ridiculous." She wants to come round with my dad to straighten things out but I don't know how to handle it to be honest - I can't be doing with another session of being told that if I'm upset it's because I'm hysterical and stupid and that they are in no way at fault.

Should I avoid talking to them about it again, or try with DP there (they're much nicer in front of him.) Any tips?

God I'd be fuming! She sounds like she's trying to be your DS's mummy, not his grandmother.

I'd def talk to her/them again, but with DP there if she is more reasonable then, plus he can back you up if you need it.

She needs to be told firmly that he is your son, that you make the decisions about him, that you will gladly ask her advice when you need it (, but she'll want to hear that) but that you have to do things your way.

If she doesn't like it, tough, because the situation is making you miserable so something has to change...

I am really worried that this will be me in a couple of months, my mother has always been completely overbaring, she's always bitching at me and bullying me into doing things that I just don't want to do, but I can't be arsed with a row because it will undoubteldy end up in one, NO ONE tells her what to do, you know. She even makes the nice things she does turn into a complete pain in the arse, she's got me going to M&S to try on clothes as she wants to get me some, but I don't get home until 7.30 each night and I just want to get on the sofa and curl up with some food, not f*ck about in town, but there's no telling her.

I feel for you Bohemian, I know exactly how you feel, about 3 inches tall I expect if I'm anything to go by. Have your DP with you, make sure you brief him to step in the instant your mother starts getting out of hand, she'll be on the defensive, if she's being horrible just tell her to get out of your house, wish I could do that to my mum (don't have the balls!), it'd make things a lot easier!!

Not being flippant, but have you thought about emigrating or just moving somewhere a bit less convenient for them to visit. Sometimes with difficult relatives life becomes a lot more enjoyable with more distance between you.

this so hard poor you

i guess if you can muster it you can say 'i know you love ds and want the best for him, but so do i and you need to let me do things my own way' - if you can manage to be really cool and the adult then they may start to get the message that you can do this. If you get whiney then that probably doesnt help (not saying you have but if you are tempted!)

i suppose if they are good at babysitting etc then you may have to bite your lip for years to come really - i have to with my mum - and i am sure she does with me

sometimes i think we expect too much from grandparents - we expect support and babysitting and also for them to keep their mouths shut and only say what we want to hear - that is quite a tall order

i think it was really odd of them to cut your son's hair by the way - not helping their cause really

Would also suggest you put this also on to the "well we took you to Stately homes" thread part 3 in this relationships page as many women on there can relate.

As for your comment:-
"The upshot of the conversation was that my mum got really angry and defensive and either denied that things I mentioned had ever happened, or told me I was "ridiculous." She wants to come round with my dad to straighten things out but I don't know how to handle it to be honest - I can't be doing with another session of being told that if I'm upset it's because I'm hysterical and stupid and that they are in no way at fault".

Your parents reactions are typical of toxic parents - this is exactly what such people come out with. If they were reasonable they would discuss this properly and not counterattack as they have done.

Would suggest you read "Toxic Parents" written by Susan Forward and this may help you find a way forward. You are not strong enough yet to have further confrontation. If you do talk again you cannot talk with them alone, you will need your partner there too.

Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect you feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defenses that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety will undoubtedly us it during confrontation to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behavior. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offenses against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behavior. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get," or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ....

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realize that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too.

Discuss it with dp and then arrange a visit with dp at your side. Otherwise just your mum and you - you don't need two of them going on at you.

Yes, definitely have your DP there partly because then you have a witness to their tone of voice, what they actually said etc and can discuss it afterwards with him and know that you are not going mad! Good luck. Love Attila's post BTW.

Getting arsey is just controlling behaviour and bullying you into shutting up. Has she always done this? If she threatens not to see him again if you don't like everything she does, you must just say "I'm sorry you feel that way, then I suppose that's the way it must be".
Okay, I don't know if it will work, but that's what was recommended to me when my dad used to bully me into submission.
This must upset you and make your opinions feel totally invalid. I hope you are able to work through it without too much heartache.

Meerkat, great quotes and very useful.

I feel for you as my mother is the same. She massively over reacts to anythign you say and then it's always my fault 'I should have said it sooner/later/when she wasn't tired/upset'. When she really went over the top I refused to have anything to do with her or speak to her again until she apologised to me. It did work but I didn't have my ds then so it might be harder to do that now. No real advice I guess but in my experience giving into her all the time only makes them worse.

Thank you so much for all the messages, because I was starting to think that maybe I was wrong and it's a perfectly acceptable thing to do, to just ride roughshod over someone all the time.

When I said about the hair, she said:

"well I'm sorry, I guess I thought we were close enough to just do it, but obviously I was wrong"

• which to my mind is major guilt tactics. I said that even if they lived in the same house as us this would still not be acceptable. She also then pointed out all the things they do to try to help us, and said that if we don't trust them to look after DS anymore then that's up to us.

So, judging by Attila's post up there, fairly standard stuff.

I have actually got the Toxic Parents book thanks to an earlier recommendation (it may have even been by you, Attila!) but am only half way through so am going to try to batter through it whilst DS is asleep!

Thanks again for all the support, it really means a lot. They start to mess with my mind after a while!

I've noticed that parents like this (mine included) seem to have a hard time with being secondary care givers for grandchildren and so often try to undermine and manipulate. Cutting hair without asking is the perfect example. Me, my husband and my then baby daughter once shared a holiday housewith my parents...we went 50/50 on everything so it was a pretty equal arrangement. My mum went into control overdrive and made the whole holiday a f*cking nightmare with daily strops if we didn't want to do the same activity etc, wanted to try a different restaurant blahblah. She couldn't handle being only 25%of the deciding panel... after putting my daughter down in the evening, she refused to be somewhat quiet (ie not slam doors, put tv down a bit) as our bedroom was next to the living room- I ended up spending every evening trying to get my daughter back to sleep time and time again. Things only calmed down once she decided to actually buy a timeshare in the complex halfway through the holiday- I think this symbolised her being back in control. Madness!

Sat like that at the screen...how dare she!!!

I used to get mum and dad coming round to 'straighten things out' don't let them do it!! YANBU!!

She is behaving in a toxic way. Below are reactions to confrontation of childhood issues, but can be applied here too...

1. It never happened
2. It was your fault
3. I've said I was sorry...
4. We did the best we could
5. Look what we've done for you
6. How can you do this to me?

Does she actually realise you have feelings too and an identity independant to her? And your an adult?

And I've just read posts above and seen Attila has got in before me with the list!!

Okay, so, my advice. Do NOT have them round to 'straighten things out' you will feel worse and beaten after they have done it. They have had their way for a long time now, haven't they? If they do come round, you are busy/not convenient time. No doubt they will react angrily but this is YOUR HOME, not theirs...and when it comes to be bullied, you should always be too busy to listen to it!! You need to look after yourself now, put yourself first. You are doing a good job as a parent and do NOT need to be undermined by the very people who should be supporting you!

Got to go...dd awake!

Thanks again - god, it really must be quite common?! I really hope I don't end up that way, am determined to write all this down so I remember how not to behave when my kids are older.

The apology thing is the worst bit - it really gets me, she kept saying "well, I've said I'm sorry, what more can I do?" in a really arsey tone which just (unless I'm over sensitive!) really undermines the whole apology anyway.

Well, they're off on holiday soon so they'll have a bit of time to think about it, although they're never in the wrong so I can't imagine it'll help.

The worst thing is that suddenly my mum (who is my stepmum, technically) starts dragging my mother into it and asking if I've seen her and getting really aggro about that when it really wasn't relevant to what we were talking about. Just so she has another stick to hit me with. Fun and games...

Wow Atilla! Am thinking of saving this thread because your advice is so good!

BB - although my parents haven't upset me so many times as yours with regards to DS we have had our differences of opinion and each time it goes to me being 'silly' or 'over sensitive' It always falls back on the daughter-parent relationship and as they are my parents, despite the fact that I am 38, married, professional homeowner & mother, I am their daughter & thus they can tell me off! It is as if I am still 14! So I understand how you are feeling. Can't help with the advice because tbh I haven't found the way to deal with mine yet....as I said Atilla gives some really effective responses.

Good luck!

bohemianbint on Thu 13-Mar-08 18:44:14
"Thanks again - god, it really must be quite common?! I really hope I don't end up that way, am determined to write all this down so I remember how not to behave when my kids are older.

The apology thing is the worst bit - it really gets me, she kept saying "well, I've said I'm sorry, what more can I do?" in a really arsey tone which just (unless I'm over sensitive!) really undermines the whole apology anyway."

She sounds just like my 11yo; that is the typical way of not apologising. "SoRREEE!!!". It's the verbal equivalent of stamping your foot and slamming the door.

Hard to know how to handle it though, without knowing her. My Mum gets incredibly upset and emotional at the slightest sign of criticism, but then regrets it and genuinely wishes she hadn't, so it's just a question of riding out the storm. But yours sounds more difficult to handle and much more like she wants to control you.

Hi,

This could be my mother too.... She also has issues with control...
Alley90 - your list is really good - I get replies 3-6 the most... Especially 'Where did I go wrong, why do you hate me?' (this is in response to ANYTIME i disagree with her!)

BB - I think the best thing you can do is limit their influence... I've found one of the easiest ways is to never ASK my parents for anything... They have a big thing about NEED... They like / need to be needed... But, of course, ASK for help and they'll never let you forget 'all the things they have done for you'. Also, have your DP with you as much as possible... My parents are always MUCH easier to deal with when DH is about.

I also have to deal with my mothers tears. One of her gut reactions is to burst out crying when things aren't going her way...

More recently, she's also started the 'that never happened' - Mostly in relation to her mother (Who she had a VERY difficult relationship with, but who she now talks about like F*cking mother Teresa!)

My parents still treat me as if I'm a young teenager. Her idea of 'chit chat' is to bombard me with questions on every aspect of my life, and she'll call several times a day 'to say hi' (but, of course, it's really to make herself feel OK and to check I'm OK)

Anyway, I think all we can do is really try not to be like this to our own children...

I'v been quite surprised (and a little heartened) at how many people actually have to deal with parents like this - I really thought mine were one-offs! Do you think it happens to girls more than boys?

Youcannotbeserious - I think you might be onto something re the girls more than boys thing. My brother doesn't come in for half the stick I do but then he keeps himself very much to himself and tells no one anything. I think he might have the right idea. I don't think my sister ever tells them anything important either and is actually really rude to them sometimes, which I guess works but isn't how I want to be.

There must be an in between ground, surely!

Well - they came round...and didn't say a single word about it. Not an apology, nothing. Now everything feels like it's just hanging in the air and they're going away tomorrow for nearly a month. So it's going to stay that way, and in all likelihood, forever.

I'm really annoyed, I hate unresolved crap lurking about, it ruins my equilibrium...

aww bohemian, i remember the christmas threads on here about your mum and family in general.

I would not be up to facing her at this time. You need a bit of distance (time) to be able to not be too emotional about it when you do meet up.

I have a hypercritical mum who, hwen she is angry is really really hurtful. In the long run I have concluded that there is less happeness and more pain in the relationship and I haven't been in touch in nearly 3 yrs. I am not happy with the state of things but for me I don't need the negativity to grind me further down either. This is something I certainly don't recommend to you but maybe I am saying you are your own woman making your own choices and they must learn respect that. You don't owe them fealty for being their child.

I know you live close to your family so this is not an easy option. I would find other ways to see them less, like get more involved in a community or volunteer role that interests you. This way you are too occupied so will see them less.

oops, cross posted. I guess then the month away can be a blessing in disguise. Find alternative ways to fill up your day and your children's day.

Message withdrawn

"Well - they came round...and didn't say a single word about it. Not an apology, nothing".

Did they invite themselves over?.

Not at all surprised unfortunately to read that response from your parents. They will never apologise or even acknowledge wrong doing. If they also counterattack which is what many such people do in these circumstances I can guarantee that they will say one of those phrases mentioned as a response.

You cannot change them but you can change you react to them.

I hope you find the book "Toxic Parents" helpful.

Hi, bohemian just to say i comletely relate to everything you are saying, my parents are absolutely horrible to deal with at the mo. Ive allways had a difficult relationship with my mother but it did seem to improve while my ds1 was between ages 1-3.5 but yet again it has gone sour. It is very hard to deal with as being mums ourselves we know the love and passion we feel for our kids and just want the same feeling back from our own folks. At the moment we are at a stalemate, like yourself ive been told im completely imagining things that have been said and its just my way!! She will not take any blame or even agree to any fault in herself whatsoever. My friends and dh have told me to treat her like a difficult guest so that i come to not expect anything of her, yet all i want is a bit of love and empathy. I am going to try and get hold of this toxic parent book, as i feel i need some sort of help. Hope this post makes you feel less alone in your situation