Those who understand codependence - please advise

[WomanWhoLovesTooMuch]

I tend towards codependence, which I have recently realised and am now working on. My partner ? from whom I am separated ? has addictive tendencies, which he isn't altogether aware of.

We would both like to try reconciling after some breathing space. While I am working on the negative traits and relationship behaviours I have brought to the feast, he is simply taking time out ? distracting himself from the pain of the past six months, with the intention of coming at it anew: time heals and all that. But I am realising, through the work I am doing, how massively he will need to change too, if we are ever going to function healthily as a couple. I don't think he has a clue.

So I am feeling tempted ? in true codependent style [eye roll] ? to 'help' him (and us); to explain what's been going on for us, individually and as a couple, and that while I'm doing abc about my stuff, he needs to be doing xyz about his ? but because he wants to and through his own efforts. And leave it at that. But this is still me wanting him to change, and spelling it out to him, isn't it? Doing a bit of the work for him.

The advice for codependents is to let go; to try to fix nothing other than oneself. I think I could do this if we didn't have a son. But because we have a child, and because we both want to make it work ultimately, I feel that simply letting go and not imparting any information I learn about that could help us, would be irresponsible.

What do you think? Can I tell my ex what he would need to change, himself, and leave it at that? Would this be trying too hard, even with a child in the equation?

Woah, you're talking about telling him:

a) what exactly is wrong with him, and
b) what he needs to change?

You're kidding, right? He's unlikely to really see the issues you're pointing out, he needs to see them himself. And he needs to see things his way and fix them his way. Not your way. He's not you. And he will never be you.

Are you seeing a therapist? Is he? Is couples counselling an option?

No, sorry, I agree with NQC. You can't change him you can only change yourself. You can't force him to be someone he isn't in order to suit you or make the relationship work. If you really want to be with him then, you have to work on becoming independent rather than codpendent and you accept your differences. I always find that looking in the mirror rather than the magnifying glass helps.

The thing is, you may not be right about what's wrong with him, which would make him even less inclined to work on putting your relationship back together. Reading a couple of self-help books doesn't make you an authority. Even if he is an addict, addicts only get clean when they are ready, not just because an ex-partner makes it a condition of resuming a relationship that they may not want to resume anyway.

No, I'm not kidding. He has been massively unreliable, disrespectful, selfish, irresponsible - and friends and family are saying the same, so I know I'm not barking or being demanding. And of course these things need to change to make the relationship work. And not saying anything feels like not trying. We have a child in the thick of this, ffs, so I have to do something - or is that the whole codependence thing again ... or just being responsible?

We are seeing a counsellor as a couple, and I am seeing one independently, so maybe it'll all come out. Can I bring this stuff up there?

I feel, because he has expressed that he wants to make the relationship work after some time apart, that he needs to know what'll need to be different. Can I phrase it in terms of what will be essential - reliability, respect, etc - rather than everything that's wrong?

Communicating nothing feels like giving up. How can I tell me son later on that I didn't even try?

But, by working on yourself and losing the codependency you will have tried, you won't have just given up, that will be a great achievement if it enables your relationship to work.

You may be right, your DP may be all of those things you describe, no one is saying you are wrong but, you do have a choice, you can either walk away or you can find a way to make the relaionship work. What you cannot do is force him to change. You cannot force him to become codependent, thats still an unhealthy balance.

I personally would love to hear how you get onwith the counselling if you don't mind sharing

Thanks.

This is clearly so entrenched in me, because you all automatically see the situation in a way I don't, at first.

TimeForMe - thanks for your compassion. I am realising I cannot force my ex to change. Where I'm coming from is that, for me, it would feel self-respecting and empowering - a new direction for me - to say that I will not tolerate anymore of xyz (which I haven't explicitly said) and that abc will be essential moving forward (which I also haven't said). He can then think on that, if he chooses to, for the time we're apart, and consider if it's something he wants, too. That's all I'd be doing - not actively "working" on him, iyswim. I thought, at a time of relationship crisis, it's generally a constructive thing to reflect on what you do and don't want, and communicate that?

Of course I need to sort myself out. This habit of relating of mine is awful. But because we are separated with a view to reconciling, surely my ex needs to know if I realise some things about what I want and need, moving forwards?

Don't know if I'm making much sense ...

Yes, you are making sense... to me anyway.

If i were you i would take this one step at a time. The first thing i would do is start that work on myself and see if it helped to see things with DP any differently. It may well be that you will come out of all this a lot stronger and may look at him in a completely different light, especially if he has seen the separation as more of a relationship 'holiday' and hopes to come back to it with nothing having changed

As I see it you have two choices (if you want to stick at this r/ship that is) You either toughen up, get your self esteem in tip top condition so that his thoughless and selfish behaviour doesn't touch you or, you continue just as you are but, in doing so you take the risk of losing him anyway because you will probably be so miserable you won't be able to stop yourself from moaning at him to change

Do you mind me asking, if it were not for your DC would you still want to work at things or, would you be happy to walk away?

By the way, in my exeperience actions speak loder than words. The minute you sit a man down for 'the chat' he either closes his ears or becomes all defensive meaning you are simply wasting your breath. Show him you mean business by your actions. Stop doing whatever makes you feel uncomfortable. Afterall, you can hardly blame him for making you feel angry for doing something you willingly do.

Thanks, TFM. Helpful post.

In fairness to my ex, he has also been telling me to use this time apart to concentrate on me and do as much for me as I can; get to know myself. In fact a lot of people have, and I just didn't get it at first!

Hmm. If it were not for my son, would I still want to work at things? Possibly not, because of the scale of hurt experienced in the past year or so - at least not for a while. Although I'd still find it difficult to walk away. My ex was a very different, wonderful person for many years of our relationship - whether by his choosing or under pressure from me, I don't know. A couple of big, traumatic events have brought about change (or regression?) in recent years. If I could have the wonderful person my ex can be back, I would probably go for it - after addressing my crap first, of course. That's a bit of a woolly way of saying yes and no! For both of us, our son is a good reason to try to sort out our difficulties, if not the reason to stay together ... although I feel like I'm the only one taking a long hard look at myself at the moment.

Your one-step-at-a-time approach stacks up. And the two choices. I mostly understand what you suggest - but how does him not turning up to see ds, or arriving stressfully late for something, not even touch me? And what comes next? What happens, assuming I manage to toughen up, when we look at trying to reconcile a way down the line? Is that when I lay the cards on the table? Hmm ...

Thanks.

Hmmm. I would ignore what he has been. I would just (as much as possible) throw away all that.

And deal with his behaviour now, on a 'one day at a time' basis. As in, if he does something you don't like, then you tell him as much. But just talk about that one thing, not about the past, not about all the rest, just that one thing.

You don't want someone in your (and your DC's) life who isn't treating you well. You have the right to be treated with respect.

But you aren't his mother, you aren't in charge of his behaviour, and acting as if you are just encourages him to be, well, all the things you say he's being!

Does the not turning up to see DS happen now? Does the arriving stressfully late happen now? I tell you what I would do, the next time he arranged to see DS I wouldn't be home and the next time he arrived stressfully late he wouldn't find me waiting for him, I would have given up waiting.

You stop rewarding his bead behaviour. Like he has told you, take care of your own needs. One of your needs is not to be stressed or upset by his actions so, you take steps to avoid being so Are you getting the picture?

That should read bad behaviour

What is coming across quite a bit in your posts is 'He's the Bad Person and my faults are that I Love Too Much and everyone else says I'm Wonderful'. Which hopefully is not the way you are actually behaving towards your partner but it's a bit off-putting because it sounds as though everything that went wrong in the relationship was his fault and if only he'd do everything you say things would be great again. No one is going to respond well to being told that. 'Go f** yourself is not an extreme response to being given a list of all your human failings by someone else. It's very irritating to live with someone who acts the martyr all the time, as well.

Thanks. Food for thought.

Of course I'm not wonderful - far from it. I have plenty of failings, and some which are not conducive to a healthy relationship, and I need to work on these - and I am.

Believe me when I say my ex has been uncharacteristically bastardish on and off for the past year or so. I haven't gone into the ins and outs here, but I have been treated appallingly, really I have.

In the context of our relationship, I need to look at to what extent I allowed/invited/encouraged this, and my ex needs to recognise why his behaviour wasn't OK, feel remorse, and consider working on himself such that it would never happen again. Again, in the context of trying to make this relationship work, which is something we both want to try.

My ex is still turning up late - an example being him arriving to be with ds when I had a train to catch. I guess that, if I don't find him dependable at the moment, I arrange for someone else to be with ds - with the consequence to my ex being that he sees him less, but if he isn't reliable, that isn't my problem. Is that fair? Sigh. My perception's f*cked.

Anyway, thanks again. Harsh but helpful.

I think thats very fair. FWIW I admire you for taking responsibility for your part in your relationship and for making every effort to make it work. You could have thrown in the towel and spent the rest of your life being a victim, blaming him but you haven't. You are looking into ways of changing your behviour in an effort to get him to change his and thats commendable.

I can completely understand what you are saying. I have spent a long time looking at myself and now have a pretty clear idea of what i want and need now (and my h has not in the past delivered these things).

I am hesitating trusting my h at the moment as i feel i have done a lot of work on me and i want to know that he has on himself too so that i can feel sucure that he will not treat me badly agian.

However i have realised that i cannot force him to do this - and i am not sure many men actually do want to examine their relationships and themselves too deeply. It is just in their nature - men are from mars and all that.

I have to accept that i have now firmly marked the line in the sand and told him where it is and what will happen if it gets crossed. By working on me i have a better idea of where that line should be - whereas in the past, just like you i think i did not make it clear and so he was able to cross this and abuse my trust.

You now have to either tell him exactly what you need and then stick to it or accept that he will not change and that you can actually live with his faults.

Anyway good luck with it.

Thanks for your post, HappyWoman. I admire you, and wish you all the best with working things out with your husband. Good luck.

Not had time to go through all the posts here but I would point out that there's a difference between-

-just saying what you honestly think about someone's behaviour/personality (ie he's selfish, irresponsible, addictive tendencies, makes you feel angry etc)

AND

-focusing on these behaviours and changing them so much that you and others suffer in the process...

Often codependent people try to take control of the other person's problems but don't have enough perspective about what is actually acceptable or unacceptable. You need to shift your focus a bit...counselling is an excellent opportunity to air grievances and get a load off but you need to lose the anxiety about his response/what he does with the information. Trust your instincts about how you feel. Sometimes he will take things on board and he may even implement some of your suggestions but you have to live your life in the meantime according to your own self, not dependent on whether he will or will not change. Deal with him as he is today and not what he will or will not be tomorrow.

PS By trusting your instincts I mean not justifying yourself and recognising that behaviours like not turning up to see your son (without an understable reason) is truly unacceptable and a deal-breaker. You don't need people to believe that he's been a shithead- you KNOW he has so that's that.

I'm no longer co-dependent, please come back....doesn't sound any less dependent to me, in all honesty. Sorry, I really don't mean to be unkind- just pointing it out.

He is an addictive personality. You can either accept it or not. No ifs but and maybes, you either accept it or not, and all the behaviour that goes with it. So you won't be able to rely on him for babysitting... you must always get a sitter for important appointments, etc. This is non-dependent behaviour. Rowing with him about what a bastard he is, whilst knowing all along that he would not be there in time, is still co-dependent behaviour. You knew he wouldn't be there, and are still playing the co-dependent game by nagging his face off when he's not. You know you can't rely on him so don't. That will be a step in the right direction, and when he starts feeling pushed out of your life, maybe then he'll buck his ideas up. But you cant make him by telling him its for the best, you love him, your son needs him etc. NONE of it counts unless he decides it's time to stop.

has = is

littlewoman- totally agree about the unreliability issue...'you know you can't rely on him so don't' is great advise. WHLTM- are you ok?

I thank you, Mrs. Macaroon, all puffed up with pride now

Thanks, MrsMacaroon and littlewoman. This is a totally new way of thinking and behaving for me, but your posts make complete sense. I'm starting to "get" how I need to be different - for my own sanity, really - and need to begin work on changing ingrained habits. I find it really difficult when my ex is being all the great things he can be - I find myself thinking: "What the heck was I fussing about? He's fine." But I suppose this means nothing, really, in the bigger picture. Sigh.

And I suppose I also don't sit very well with simply letting the relationship go - I seem to have it entrenched in me to do everything I can, and keep trying and trying - not least because we have a child together and have been happy for big chunks of time. I think this mindset comes from seeing my parents go through one hell of a shit time during my teens - and my mum is no doubt codependent to my dad - and they're still together now, and faring better (relatively), and I'm happy overall that they stuck it out, so I suppose in my mind you just keep working at it and working at it. My three-year-old telling me he's sad because Daddy's moved out, and asking if Daddy can move back in, is quite a motivator to try fixing the situation, too - though of course this isn't necessarily the right thing to do.

My ex went out with a bang, and I find myself dwelling a lot on the hurt this caused, and what the hell was going on with him to feel it was OK to do what he did ... when instead I should be focusing on bolstering me.

When you talk about a dealbreaker, does that effectively mean you have a contract as to what is and is not acceptable within the relationship, and if that contract is broken, there is a consequence - i.e. moving out, etc? Is it final?

Anyway, am thinking aloud and probably not making much sense - half-asleep now.

Thanks again for insights - helpful.

Hi WHLTM

I am just wondering, when you say that at the times your DP is fine and you wonder what the heck you are making a fuss about, would you say that at that particular time your own behaviour is different? More accepting, compliant and relaxed maybe?

WHLTM- For me, being so unreliable (ie not just basic minor lateness but not bothering to turn up, not keeping you informed of lateness) in regard to visiting your son, for me, would be a dealbreaker. It indicates an inability to put someone else's interests before your own, which when focussed on a child, has long term consequences. Until I saw a complete turnaround in that- ie turning up on time and behaving reliably with DC, I wouldn't agree to working on the relationship at all. I would give him one chance to improve this and if he doesn't make huge moves to step up to the plate, I would scrap regular visitation. He could visit your son only when convenient to you instead. It's not about punishment, it's about not babying him. Know your mind and stick to it. There's no rush into getting back together... take your time and do it right. If he's unwilling or makes it difficult, maybe's he's not ready to have an adult relationship. He might need to go away and sort himself out before you can sort things out as a couple.