Relationship with 8 year old daughter just so strained and I don’t know what to do.

[Darkdaysout]

I’m at a loss of what to do with my 8 year old daughter. The household is so down with the behaviour and I don’t know how to make it any better.

It started at a young age 4/5. Every time we went away she would run off and find another family to sit with and say she prefers this mummy. She will never do as she is asked and every time she is asked it’s met with anger and refusal. She used to hurt the pets. She swung the gerbil round by its tail and laughed, its tail fell off. We gave her another chance but she did it again so the pets went.

It’s got to a point now where being around her is just so draining. Every morning for school she refuses to get ready and causes arguments. She won’t help pick toys up before dinner. When I speak to her she will often say “oi snap out of talking to me like this” or “you can’t talk to me like this” , “ I hate it here it’s the worse house”, “ I hate you” etc etc. The school have started giving her extra support as her behaviour was deteriorating. She distracts everyone. Her dance teacher has said she doesn’t want her attending anymore as she spends too much of the lesson stopping her from messing around.

The other day she cut her sisters birthday decorations up because she said she had too many. She steals from people and she lies. She cheats at games and she doesn’t have any friends. She will make one and then suddenly they are too rude to her or boss her around and they aren’t friends. She stole lots of girls things because she said she bossed her around….it wasn’t the case, she just messed around and they wanted her to focus.

I don’t know what to do anymore. This morning I asked her how would she like to be spoken to so that she will respond with respect. She just gave me a dirty look and said I just don’t like you.

Sounds like there could be some element of parental alienation coming from Disney dad?

Sorry op just saw this. This is your issue. I'm not convinced that narcissistic behaviours are inherited but they can be modeled and learnt by small children. If you have the means I'd also look at equine therapy, I've seen it work really well for children with similar issues and it's great when they're so wee and maybe can't articulate feelings

I agree that you need to seek help for your daughter asap. I also echo those who have recommended The Explosive Child by Ross Greene, which covers the psychology of demand avoidance and might give you some radical ‘low demand parenting’ options. Your OP sounds like a child who doesn’t have a clue how to make good choices, and can only make bad decisions, for which she hates herself, and so then continues to sabotage herself in a horrible downward spiral. The hurting animals and displaying no empathy for other children are red flags that would concern me much more than her saying she hates you. It sounds like she’s just saying she hates herself. If you have the means, I would pursue private psychological help alongside whatever the school can offer. I’m so sorry that you are in this situation and wish you the best.

I wasn’t suggesting the information regarding genetic predisposition to narcissism comment was unhelpful. I am saying “it’s too late now but you shouldn’t have had children with one” part of your post isn’t helpful to her or anyone.
in any event as you are no doubt aware the behaviours narcissists exhibit cause immense emotional disorientation and victims are conditioned or hoodwinked into a state of false reality so the chances of being able to stop them procreating with one sadly are probably limited!

Well that in itself is telling.
the school need to be onboard with this and this pattern of behaviour is extremely relevant in terms so it needs to be documented and logged

www.pdasociety.org.uk/resources/helpful-approaches-infographic/ hi OP, these approaches may be helpful.

I also recommend Ross Greene's The Explosive Child and Jeffrey Bernstein's 10 Days to a Less Defiant Child is also excellent. There are lots of strategies you can try.

The key thing to remember is that if your daughter's behaviour comes from anxiety (which is strongly suggested by the acting out after weekends with her father - she's safe with you and the teachers and the other mums -- not so much with him) then authoritarian, punitive approaches will make things worse.

A lesser known presentation of 'Fight or Flight' is 'Fool' where the person plays the fool or class clown. We have this. It makes more sense when you recognise it as an anxiety/stress behaviour.

NVR training/counselling really helped me and my DH.

It's hard but you need to go for connection above all else.

Hi OP, that sounds very hard. This is shared in the spirit of help, not labelling or judgement: amp.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2017/oct/22/what-makes-a-child-a-psychopath

When did you and her Dad split up?
How long were you living with your mother?
I would think she has a lot of anger that she cannot express.
There are a lot of family dynamics that are going on.

Like her making your Mum cry for example. How did you feel about all that?
It sounds like there's a lot of acting out going on.

Don't take her behaviour towards you personally. I know that's tough but she is the child and you are the adult.
You need to be the anchor for her.

She could be very angry with her Dad but takes it out on others because she doesn't know how to manage her emotions.

She needs therapy with a child psychologist or a special child psychotherapist.
You need a referral to child mental health services.

It's really significant that her behaviour is worse after seeing her dad. It's hard to suggest she doesn't see him because I think just having her out of the house would mean a lot for you and your other children but it's clearly damaging her.

I recommend this to anyone who is having difficulties with their children- do a Therapeutic Parenting with PACE course. It was a complete game changer for our family and we’d had every service imaginable involved over the years due to my middle’s DD’s issues (she’s also diagnosed ASC) and only ever made things worse for us. Good luck op. I know how so very hard it is but it will pass x

Thanks for all the advice. Obviously I didn’t realise he was narcissistic really before having a child. His behaviour became much more apparent after having her.

@Darkdaysout Hurting animals is a huge red flag. She needs to be assessed by a psychiatrist as soon as you can manage it. Don’t focus on trying to research things yourself, just get her seen by someone who can analyze what is going on with her psychologically. From your descriptions it’s not likely to be the typical suggestions of ADHD or autism anyway.

I’m concerned about the hurting the animals and having no empathy or guilt about it. I think she does need to see a child psychiatrist or psychologist (I’m sorry I don’t know the difference between the 2). It sounds unbelievably hard to deal with.

Swinging a gerbil around by its tail until the tail fell off is a horrific act, and points to serious psychopathic issues.

You really do have to start getting help for her now, as it can take years. The waiting lists are long.

Even if she gets help there’s no real treatment and cure for psychopathy. Psychopaths have completely different brains.

https://www.med.wisc.edu/news-and-events/2011/november/psychopaths-brains-differences-structure-function/

The behaviour and traits of her father are extremely relevant.

If your account here is a true representation of her, and your discipline of her is as thorough as you say, then I would suggest she is seen by a child psychologist. Some of her behaviours are red flags for personality disorders.

This is beyond regular naughtiness that all kids do. Beyond a bit of cheek.
injuring animals and laughing is really concerning.
You’ve done all you can, you’ve tried all the usual sanctions that would normally work.
Professional intervention is the only way.

I think you need a referral to a child psychologist via your gp.

or if you can pay privately or even save up I would try for a few play therapy sessions. Not just a tick box exercise, I think you are going to have to push on this OP as I don’t think basic reward charts and time outs or a classroom TA are going to help with this.

im really sorry you are going through this and hopefully you can get the correct support you and your family need x

Talking Consequences for behaviours just wont work. It sounds like your girl needs some play therapy and some professional help. It’s sounds so stressful for everyone but it sounds like this is the only way she knows how to communicate especially if it started at 4/5. She’s still only a little kid, they have to learn these behaviours. Please get her some professional help x

How old was she when you and her dad separated? I’m not in any way condoning her behaviour but often children act out like this when they don’t know how to express their emotions. She sounds very angry. Would you have the funds for her to see a children’s therapist? I feel instinctively there is a root cause of this that she is unable to express and it is coming out in this cold and destructive behaviour.

Any trauma from pregnancy , birth, abuse, her childhood, any history of depression in you or your ex during her lifetime? Any major illnesses?

You seem to be heavily focussed on her attitude and how she 'hates you.' What about the hurting and torturing of pets? How is that not the biggest issue?

Your child needs actual help from a psychiatrist and not the arm-chair psychologists of mumsnet who go on about absentee fathers and ADHD. Just because parents split up doesn't mean a child automatically tortures animals - and those suggesting it's issues relating to absentee fathers or trying to find some excuse for the childs behaviour need to sort themselves out and stop offering advice.

Get your child in to see a psychiatrist before she does something serious.

@Darkdaysout I'm really sorry you're dealing with this, it sounds so hard.

The GP sounds utterly ignorant and arrogant. Ask DD's class teacher and the school SENDCO for help in getting a diagnosis. See if they will write a letter that you can take along to GPs in the first instance.

Let the SENDCO know about all the incidents at home.

This sounds really difficult, but I think you've missed some really important context from your post-what was going on for her age 4? What has her life experience been? You and her dad split up-when? You and she lived with your mum? What we're the circumstances? How old was she? For how long? She has a younger sister-same dad? Do you have a partner now? Do you live together? When did he move in?
I think you need to try to understand where she's coming from before you know if this is likely to be a reaction to something, or undiagnosed developmental disorder, or something else?

You really need to get her assessed.

This isn't 'normal' naughtiness and it's not just happening with you.