Relationship with 8 year old daughter just so strained and I don’t know what to do.

[Darkdaysout]

I’m at a loss of what to do with my 8 year old daughter. The household is so down with the behaviour and I don’t know how to make it any better.

It started at a young age 4/5. Every time we went away she would run off and find another family to sit with and say she prefers this mummy. She will never do as she is asked and every time she is asked it’s met with anger and refusal. She used to hurt the pets. She swung the gerbil round by its tail and laughed, its tail fell off. We gave her another chance but she did it again so the pets went.

It’s got to a point now where being around her is just so draining. Every morning for school she refuses to get ready and causes arguments. She won’t help pick toys up before dinner. When I speak to her she will often say “oi snap out of talking to me like this” or “you can’t talk to me like this” , “ I hate it here it’s the worse house”, “ I hate you” etc etc. The school have started giving her extra support as her behaviour was deteriorating. She distracts everyone. Her dance teacher has said she doesn’t want her attending anymore as she spends too much of the lesson stopping her from messing around.

The other day she cut her sisters birthday decorations up because she said she had too many. She steals from people and she lies. She cheats at games and she doesn’t have any friends. She will make one and then suddenly they are too rude to her or boss her around and they aren’t friends. She stole lots of girls things because she said she bossed her around….it wasn’t the case, she just messed around and they wanted her to focus.

I don’t know what to do anymore. This morning I asked her how would she like to be spoken to so that she will respond with respect. She just gave me a dirty look and said I just don’t like you.

@Jellycats4life honestly (and I know I’m a stranger) I’ve done everything I can. She has probably gotten away with too much when younger but not enough to cause this behaviour.

Sorry OP for what you’re going through- I do think the level of disruption and manipulation is a cause for concern.
I have a 6yr old who can ruin a whole day when 1 thing doesn’t go her way and acts entitled - but tbh she eventually, after being sent to her room, apologises. She too has never cared about stuff but removing her from people usually is her weakness as far as punishments go. I’d say the level of disruption in class and her inability to understand external relationships and empathy sounds worrying- I’d push for an assessment.

This sounds so hard and I can tell from reading your posts how despondent and bewildered you are with it as anyone would be. As a mother of an almost eight year old daughter reading your post I did want to initially say I think girls can be emotionally quite testy and insolent - certainly mine has her moments- but then you went on to describe other things that she does which make me think like others you certainly need some proper professional input and support with.

sorry if I missed this and apologies if it is an insensitive question but how does her dad help and support you both if he’s around?

@OnlyFoolsnMothers it’s the lack of empathy that I struggle with. When she cut her sisters party decs or she stole a girls things when she went on camp I asked her how she thinks they feel. She has no empathy just says what about me. The girl was bossing me and my sister doesn’t need them, they deserve it. I’ve read most children steal once but the empathy makes them feel bad and they don’t do again. She keeps on taking and hiding others things.

@Whiskeypowers she sees her dad every other weekend. It’s a word thrown around a lot but he is most definitely narcissistic. He was found at court to be lacking empathy so wasn’t given anymore contact. He is no use as he is Disney dad and she can do whatever she wants with him. He doesn’t have any touch with the school and is not interested in her behaviour.

I did wonder what his role was.
do you think he is making any of this worse, for example does this sort of behaviour flare up when she comes back home?
i also totally relate to your comments about narcissistic behaviours although he isn’t allowed anything to do with our children so you have my empathy there.

It's not good enough for the gp to be "not interested". Your daughter needs an assessment and is entitled to one - take her back and insist. Ask to see a different gp if yours won't listen.

Ask for a meeting with the school senco and request that they get an educational psychologist in to observe her in school.

Try not to dwell on the hurtful things she says (I know that's hard); she doesn't hate you, she is struggling with unmet needs and is lashing out at you because she's under constant stress. If she gets a proper developmental assessment and her needs are identified and supported, things will start to improve - and you'll handle her better when you understand more about what's going on inside her. You need to be really assertive with the professionals to get her the input she needs.

@Whiskeypowers oh yes she has to be removed from her class every other Monday because she can’t take the class rules. She will have spent the weekend centre of attention and getting her own way as he isn’t interested in parenting her (his girlfriend does most of it anyway). She will be extremely disruptive. She returns saying she hates me , hates living here and having rules. Sometimes I just think it better she lives with him but I know that wouldn’t work either.

@sprigatito what could be those unmet needs? I can’t let her do what she wants all the time and she needs to develop empathy.

It feels she needs to be in constant control of everything. She ruins most days out. We went out Sunday and she says wherever we are going I’m going to hate it. She will then moan and run off till we leave.

I agree with the other posters who say you need to press for her to be seen by a professional who can make a real assessment of her needs. There are several things in your post that are beyond the normal range.

her behaviour is appalling OP and I can imagine how despondent you are and how much this must be upsetting her siblings. How terrible for you to have been dealt such a crappy card in the parenting card game. I hope you get some answers and solutions.

Has she ever witnessed violence or abuse in the home?

It’s a word thrown around a lot but he is most definitely narcissistic. He was found at court to be lacking empathy so wasn’t given anymore contact

Narcissism has a child genetic component. It does stem from a combination of early childhood experiences and well as genetic predisposition but you need to have the genetic predisposition for it to develop. I know it’s too late but you shouldn’t of had a child with a narcissist.

How is that sort of comment - the part at the end specifically - in anyway helpful to the OP?

Hi Op, it sounds really challenging with what you are going through. I work with families and have recently done training in attachement. Some of the behaviours you describe sound like symptoms of a child with attachment issues. If this is the case then parenting focused on behaviour management rather that the relationship will make things worse at this stage. I agree with talking to the GP and school, Early Help would be a good form of support to get help with this.

I think this sounds a lot like PDA. It's part of thr autistic spectrum. My daughter is ASD/ADHD with the PDA profile.

Ignore those that have said I wouldn't let a child behave like that. They say that because they haven't directly experienced PDA and therefore have no actual idea as to its complexity. They couldn't handle it any better if they were actually in your place.

Sanctions and rewards generally don't work with PDA.

You need the school or GP to refer you to CAMHs for an ADHD or ASD assessment. You have more than enough evidence to flagpost neuro diversity from what you have posted here.

Diagnosis is a long process - too long. It will however, hopefully help with you understanding what you are dealing with and give access to information and possible parenting strategies.

How is that sort of comment - the part at the end specifically - in anyway helpful to the OP?

It’s helpful to other posters who aren’t aware of the genetic component of narcissism. So many women will have kids with someone they know is a bad person and then are shocked their children have similar traits to the narc parent.

I don't know what her particular needs are, but some of what you describe sounds very redolent of the autistic spectrum. If she is autistic, she will be frustrated, confused, angry and stressed because all the routines and expectations in her life are working against her nature. Hence the disruptive behaviour and apparent lack of feeling for others; autistic people whose needs are unaddressed live with an intolerable level of stress. With a diagnosis and targeted support, both you and she can learn how to mitigate her difficulties, reduce the triggers for her behaviour and develop her empathy and communication skills. The playing up around days out, the struggling with reciprocal relationships and needing to be in control, the explosive behaviour - these are all really common for autistic children and they do improve with informed, specialist support.

it seems like a personality disorder. i've been told my mother was like this as a child. as an adult she was diagnosed with bipolar. she is very manipulative

Have you explained to the GP & school about not just her abuse of animals but the fact she found it funny & continued to do it?
I would hope that sort of behaviour would be taken seriously by professionals.

@Darkdaysout

This article may offer insight/suggestions

https://www.empoweringparents.com/article/manipulative-child-behavior-my-kids-are-too-smart-for-their-own-good/

I also thought about oppositional defiance disorder and I do think you will need to push hard with the gp for a referral because it can be hard to get this young but early intervention is helpful. I would try to make sure you're still praising good behaviour and try to set her up for good behaviour with a low bar for that type of praise. Only because I know how easy it can be to fall into feeling like you're constantly working on the bad behaviour. Is there anything she cares about that you can use as a consequence for her behaviour? I'd also be trying to explain the impact her words etc have on other people to encourage empathy. I would say that children can realise that hurtful words and actions can hold power at that age so she may be experimenting with what she can do but it sounds from what you say like empathy is lacking and she's a serious need for control . Is there anyone else in her life or her past who had issues with control and respect? Is everyone in your house equally applying the consequences you are?

The fact she is injuring and hurting animals is a major red flag.

Swinging a gerbil around by its tail until the tail fell off is a horrific act, and points to serious psychopathic issues.

You really do have to start getting help for her now, as it can take years. The waiting lists are long.

Do something now before she goes on to physically hurt other people, or herself.

Well that’s pretty unusual for an eight year old. Are you sure that something hasn’t happened to her and she is acting out? Is she neuro diverse? I would suggest a counsellor via GP