Upset parents, stuck in the middle

[Smerpsmorp]

I’ve chosen relationships because it’s about the relationship of my brother and DM.

DM and DB had an argument via text. SIL sent DM a message that was about 6 pages long about how to deal with their child. DM is an expert in childcare having been a childminder, raising three kids, and then working for a long time with SEN children. DM took offense, but said that she would try her best to follow their wishes. DB thought this wasn’t enough, and has now cut her off, and stopped parents from going to help out. Mum is devastated - because she actually agreed to do the thing they’d asked, and also because they never picked up the phone to discuss the thing they’d asked which is all linked to gentle parenting.

i will say that I have two adopted children, who love their grandparents more than anything. They are not a product of their times and are willing to change their ways and their language to suit my children. They will talk about birth family in the way we need them to, and they will defer to us as their parents whenever they need to aswell. Me and my husband both work long hours so we have needed them before, and they’ve been there for us in spite of living so far away. They don’t always get things right, because nobody does, but equally they show my children so much love, and treat them the same (if not with more love) as the biological grand children. And equally whenever I’ve talked about whatever I want them to do, they listen and are respectful of my wishes (but it turns out I very rarely have to do this, because they are so onboard.)

Mine and my two brothers upbringing was whilst not called gentle parenting, it was gentle parenting in most of the sense of the word. We were brought up with love and care. There were times my parents got angry (as I’m sure gentle parents will too????) but it was all with love. I try and emulate gentle parenting as much as I humanly can but it’s very hard to be therapeutic 24/7 as I’m sure any therapeutic parents know.

i am clearly very close with DM, but I’m finding I am having to undo a lot of the damage but also, mum has now sent DB a message which has been read but no reply which basically says you just need to let me know you’re okay, and this level of no contact is affecting her health. I recognise that from anybody who has gone no contact there is a level of guilt tripping, but equally I don’t see how they can go no contact over what has been said (mum has shown me the messages). There’s been no phone call between the two of them but they’ve essentially decided no contact because of the tone of a text message. And also all my mum is asking to know is that they are okay.

my other brother has invited us to Christmas dinner in between Christmas and new years, I fear that a) they either won’t come and it’ll just further upset my parents because they will think they are the reason that as brothers we are falling out (which isn’t true, they just never message or reply to messages or ever want to meet up or do anything) but also b) they do come and it’s going to be so awkward because my parents will be there.

i want to message my brother but I don’t know what I can say… or do to make this right. I don’t think I can do anything but I also need my mum to be happy and okay! But I just don’t think it’s anything I can fix…!

if you got to the end of that thanks!!! Even if nobody replies I think it’s helped me to write it down!!!

“I’ll try” actually gets heard as “I’ll do what I want and blame you for getting upset”

Your mother may be an expert, but she should just have said yes and not contradicted them. Just supported them.

usually stuff like that doesn’t come from nowhere which makes me sort of wonder what SIL would say.

I appreciate she’s upset, but she could Stil apologise for feeling she knew better than a child’s own parents.

Seems like a big thing to cut off grandma, so what was the 6 page letter stipulating and what actually was grandmas response? More to this I think?

Well anyone that sends a message 6 pages long would have my antenna up. She is going to be constantly watching her back. But if your dm wants to see her gc she will have to agree to go along with everything. The fact she is experienced in this area could mean she has overstepped the mark and even thinking she knows best would be off-putting for her dil.
Something must have happened to cause the long message to come. But at the moment there is not much she can do and l don't think you getting involved is a good idea as your dm and dB could sort it out but you might end up being the one left out.

Is there some back story as to why DB/SIL have cut DM off over just this? Seems extreme.

I would call not message. I think sometimes messages can be misinterpreted as there is little to no nuance - which may be why this has happened. You probably don't want to get into the middle of it, but a calm and evenhanded (ie not taking sides) chat to DB probably wouldn't hurt.

thanks for your reply - I get what you’re saying but it’s almost impossible to look after a child with a list of things you can say and you can’t. I think if you’re micromanaged to that extent then you end up saying the wrong thing. She also has apologised and told them she would do whatever she could to support them.

It would make me want to say to them, I’ll just say what I want to say to you and then you can translate it for your daughter.

I honestly have never witnessed anything other than gentle parenting from my mum - and I mean this. She just doesn’t know it’s called gentle parenting. Every time a child complains she asks them why to get to the bottom of it. She follows their play entirely. She gives them choices when they are upset. She supports them to label their feelings. She listens to them entirely.

she also has not proclaimed to be the expert - that’s me that’s said that - she was just hurt that she needed what was essentially a crib sheet to look after a grandchild, when really it didn’t need to be said.

equally fine - don’t let them look after the grandchild - but send them a photo? Send them a text to say - we are all good? They have enough grandchildren to look after and frankly the week they were meant to be looking after this grand child, my other brother could have used the help given that the rest of us can’t work from home. So they actually didn’t even need the childcare to begin with.

This is true. And equally she has said that she would do whatever it takes. But you’ve hit the nail on the head!

if there is a backstory, DM doesn’t know it…

Hard to say online without it being blatantly obvious (though I think it would be obvious if they read it here).

my dm has shown me all the messages and I think had it been a phone call it would have been fine.

Dont get involved OP. Youll be classed as parents flying monkey.

I think you'd need to give some idea of what was asked by DIL, had DGM previously cared for child and had something not been to their liking.

Your poor mum. Your DB and wife sound horrible. Very controlling. When asking a favour you do not dictate the terms.

Looks to me as though SIL has been trying to distance them from the family for a while. More fool your brother for letting her.

I think the best thing you can do is be there for your mum. Probably better not to get involved in the argument.

My advice? Stay out of it!

Be there for each of them. Don't jump to conclusions. Your sil may have pnd and this is how some of that is manifesting.

If you wanted to do anything, I'd be calling my brother and just say, obviously I'm calling because of the fall out. And see if they are OK. I wouldn't defend your mum, or get into the details, but just check in.

Sometimes a bit of time and space helps things to get back into perspective. Don't rush that. And try and tell your mum this.

I'd get myself involved.
If there's truly no backstory then your db and sil are being very cruel to your DM.
As it was your sil that sent the 6 page instructions it's probably your sil that wants no contact and db is going along with it
I'd speak to both of them but I'd tread warily, explain the misunderstanding, that DM would obviously do her best to follow all instructions, explain that there's been a miscommunication and how upsetting the situation is for all.
If they were not receptive to your reasonable explanation I'd then go nuclear (don't advise that, I'm a hot head and no-one would get away with treating my DM badly)
Good luck

Sounds like your SIL is rather self-important and your brother is in her thrall. 6 pages of instructions? Do fuck off.
Your poor mum. No advice...some people are just impossible.

It sounds like you think your mother is blameless, so trying to intervene with your brother will likely only make things worse if he and his wife have had a different experience with your mother, or one where you think your mother is in the right. Your posts also (intended or not) judge SIL as not realising your mother is the expert, and that you think she is too rigid in her ideas of gentle parenting.

Gentle parents from my own experience have vastly different ways of putting this into practice and use different models of it to parent their children. A few things raise flags for me and which make it sound like your version of gentle parenting is vastly different to your brother's."there were times my parents got angry (as I’m sure gentle parents will too????) but it was all with love" and " I try and emulate gentle parenting as much as I humanly can but it’s very hard to be therapeutic 24/7 as I’m sure any therapeutic parents know". Your parents weren't doing 'gentle parenting' by the sounds of it, and it sounds like you "emulate" rather than practice gentle parenting. Again, not gentle parenting.

I will also add that you have a relationship where you can openly discuss things with your mother which is vastly different to the relationship has with a their MIL. I can tell my mother when she is being unreasonable in the moment which I could never do with my MIL without causing great offence.

This letter is her way of verbalising issues which she felt unable to communicate in person. You also state you think your mother knows best because her training, but also she won't always. Mothers know their own children best and also it is their pejorative how their own child is raised.

This week in my baby group, another mother was asking for advice because her MIL bought (without asking) forward facing carseats for herself and her partner's car, and the mother was upset as research states babies and young children are safest in rear facing. The MIL is a childminder of 15 years with 4 children. She didn't know best, just as your mother (experience and all) may not know best. However even if she did, they are your brother's and SIL's children and they can raise their children however they want.

If anything, in your shoes I'd advise her to pull back and let them make the next move.

*Full disclosure. I'm not a gentle parent, but use elements of it.

Your poor Mum. From what you’ve said, she really doesn’t deserve this.
Of course the parents’ wishes should be respected, but equally, so should your Mum’s vast experience of childcare and raising her own children. I think it’s really sad the way grandparents are so easily dismissed these days. It also sounds to me that your SIL was just waiting for an excuse to distance herself and her children. Your brother has just gone along with it.
I would just be there for your Mum. I think it would be better to downplay everything, including Christmas this year, in the hopes that it will pass. Really awful for your Mum though, she’ll be glad of your support.

Loads of good advice here already. I’m just trying to come at it from the SIL view as a POSSIBLE reason for the extreme reaction - does she have anxiety? Especially around anything to do with her child? My thought is just that maybe when your mum said she’ll ‘try’ to follow everything, it kind of freaked your SIL out that something may happen to her child if things aren’t done how they hoped. I know I’m scared to leave my little one with my In Laws and honestly if I could write down everything it would probably be 6 pages long too! And then knowing my In Laws if hey said they’ll try to follow it then my mind would be in overdrive knowing they’re probably feeding him food he shouldn’t have etc and would make me not want to leave him with them.
It does sound like you SIL had a deeper issue with your mum providing childcare and then this was just the tip of the iceberg.
The reaction is extreme though and I don’t think you should get involved except to maybe try to keep contact with your brother, not to try to fix his and your mums relationship.

Maybe your brothers experiences growing up were different to yours. Perhaps your parents style of parenting caused him harm that he doesn't want replicated with his own kids. I suspect maybe you're the golden child and you don't realise it. If you go after him now trying to fix things, you'll be your mother's flying monkey. Stay out of it. Your brother's relationship with his mother is none of your business.

As an aside extreme gentle parenting can lead to inability to settle into school or nursery.

Your SIL won't be able to dictate to them. A friend's nephew is really struggling and has been since September. The school are talking possible exclusion because he refuses to cooperate.

Some people become incredibly anxious when they become parents and want everything to be 100% right. It sounds like your brother and sister in law have joined those ranks. In that case, something at some point won’t be done correctly and it’ll all kick off.

They’re daft, because kids have to build resilience and also parents need support to have a break, but that’s their problem.

If I were the grandmother I’d 1. Not discuss by text, it’s too easy to be misconstrued, and 2. Realise that with this very strict parenting criteria she will go wrong, and it will kick off, so give lots and lots of space. If they’re not struggling now then they will be (very gentle parenting in my experience produces children who aren’t easy). Maybe that’s when they will turn to her.

Dont get involved. Simple.

I've gone low contract with my DM in the past due to her behaviour, my step sister tried to get involved, without knowing the full details and making a bad judgement based on the one sided account my DM had told her. It really upset me I now have lost all trust in step sister and have very little do with her.

Your mother has had a lucky scape and now if your SIL and your DB want childcare they are going to have to pay for it.
Your SIL and your DB seems very strict in their willing that they have transferred them into commandment.
I wouldn't take offence I would think they are delusional pretending that the kids won't survive a day without a list of six pages full or rules.

They are in the wrong. Regardless of your mum taking offence that list was a recipe for disaster.

Forgot to mention, leave them be. The rest of you can enjoy the Xmas dinner and they, SIL and DB can enjoy being very gentle busy bodies in their home.

A lot of MN mothers keep their MILS, PILS at arm's length and then complain that their in laws show no interest in their grandchildren. A lot of MN mothers put up with poor behaviour from their own mothers but are really dismissive of their in laws.
I agree that your mother should step back and give them space. In my experience at some point your brother and SIL will feel guilty and unhappy about the way they have behaved. . Let them be the ones to approach your mother ( which they will) . As their children grow up and start school , there will be times when they need grandparents. They will come round.
I think they are also probably jealous of your relationship with your mother and although you don't realise it find it hard to hear your mother talk so affectionately about your children.

I think your mum needs to just carry in as normal, ignore your db until he decides he’s ready to make contact again, go to Christmas as planned, if db chooses not to, that’s up to him, if he does turn up it’s probably the best thing as speaking in person might help, if it were me I’d avoid mentioning the issue but I’m sure there will be a variety of opinions on that.