Do most men on some level see women as lesser than men?

[standandeliveroo]

I have a good marriage, we have been together for almost 30 years and we have a loving supportive marriage, I was recently ill and my husband did really look after me as I have done for him in the past.

However even in such a good marriage there are times I do feel like he sees me as a kind of supporting act to him in a way that I do not with him. If we have jobs to do round the house, he will need me there to help him do "his job" while the things on my list are secondary and that if he holds me up from doing my jobs he'll them be miffed that I can't sit down with him when he is done his chores. Its like I exist to facilitate him on some level and he has an expectation that I will keep the house to a certain standard and cook nice food. When we first got married he was appreciative of all these things I did and would thank me for the lovely food and cosy home I made for us on top of working but in time it all just became accepted and now all I get is ire if things slip. I also feel like I am supposed to help him manage his moods and emotions and smooth things over for him which of course I often don't mind doing because I do want to support him but I feel that in many ways he should be mature enough to manage his own moods most of the time e.g. he often gets hangry, getting into a bad mood when he is hungry, he is in his 40's and so I think he should know by now that he needs to eat before he gets this way but so often he doesn't and I end up bearing the brunt of his hangry moods or if I can I am trying to manage them, knowing he needs to eat before he does and so I'll feign hunger and a headache to ensure we stop for food like a mum trying to prevent her toddler from getting too hungry or tired.

I see and talk about the same types of things from the women I know in work and long time friends and it always feels like even the good men, still see women as their aids, as secondary to them in some way, second class human beings who's needs aren't quite as valid as theirs. I feel like perhaps most men are like this and do actually see women as appendages as opposed to fully human just like them.

@Captainfairylights ” I have come to conclusion I am actually quite afraid of men and their reactions to any challenge”

same here. I don’t know if I was just unaware when I was younger

Oh God, reading this has made me think I'm like your husband (I'm a woman).

My DH cooks all my meals, does the housework, is infinitely caring, and I'm always having moods which he deals with...

Hmm. I do think my relationship is unusual though - most women I know do more of the housework/cooking/supporting roles etc for their partner.

I've also met many men who are sexist like you describe, but I've never had any desire to date any of them tbh

Though obviously I know there's truth in the premise on a general level, I suppose a reason I've never encountered it in my personal life is that I've tended to act more like the men you describe. It doesn't ever occur to me to take on shitwork or the mental load on behalf of anyone else, not even DP. I have pretty much arranged my life to prioritise what I want to do and the notion that anyone might expect me to facilitate them is laughable. Even if I was interested in "mothering" any partners I'd be fairly useless at it. No man has ever expected me to be his "support-human" because the idea that I, with my slatternly tendencies and lack of nurturing ability, could possibly do that would be a big joke.

Same! He is certainly a lot more inherently caring, supportive and nurturing than me (and a much, much better cook).

Hmm, yeah, I don't particularly agree, which is why I said I don't agree.

I think there are a variety of reasons this pattern emerges in many relationships, the main one being that people tend to fall into the patterns they are used to seeing around them. Childbirth also tends to create certain patterns which the become fixed.

Though I also think sometimes women fail to notice that their partners are doing quite a lot too. (My MIL used to be very annoyed her dh did not do more around the house, without noticing he did all kinds of work outside that she didn't help with.)

And I think quite a few women take on work that men, when they live alone or are single parents, simply don't do. Which would also be a valid approach. Why there is that difference is an interesting discussion, but I don't think it has anything to do with seeing women as lesser.

I’ve always found that even the decent ones seem to want praise for everything household related.

“I did two lots of washing today while you were out”

Like they deserve a medal or something for doing something that should be second nature.

Some just hate women full stop. Just a fanny to shag to some.

This is somewhat my experience too.

I don't usually take on extra work I don't want. Or, where there is work that no one wants, we have always either figured out a way to opt out or divided it in some way that seems fair.

Certain kinds of things I have chosen to take on which my husband doesn't care about. He will help to some extent because I ask, but they are not his projects. Some of them are typically "female" kind of things, and I have no idea why they are important to me, but I can't fault anyone who doesn't agree.

Now lazy people - I know lazy men and lazy women, and they all lean on whoever they are with.

I don’t think men view women as lesser men. I think men view women as women. As men, they are conditioned on their role in life just so. The same with we women, we are conditioned on our role in life. As much as we have laws and movements to say men and women are equal- we are not equal. Furthermore, equal doesn’t mean the same. So as we try to gain equality we are also fighting against sex (gender) role segregation by socialisation.

It’s all pervasive but looking at heterosexual marriage, there are distinct pink and blue roles that we are brainwashed from birth into thinking this is our role as the woman in the marriage. This is wife work, and that is husband work.

The exact details of wife work or husband work varies a bit from generation to generation and between cultures, but there is usually more common ground than differences.

Every deviation from this pre-determined internalised role is fraught with guilt for the one having their spouse do it, and uncertainty and approval seeking to“learned helplessness” from the one stepping outside their role to take up the other role. Being gender nonconforming in a hetero relationship causes psychological discomfort…and that’s the friction. That’s also why some who seek to avoid discomfort of any kind will push back against anything gender nonconforming to the point of ignoring a spouse who wants to break the social norms.

Men nominated themselves in charge and it is largely men that have led environmental destruction and wars. Look at all those angry people in the news, bombing, slicing and raping civilians. Men.

Time for a female led society.

Agree Tatum. Agree with op on a societal level this is true. In my head however the opposite is true - the women are the main / real people who kept the wheels turning. As a child / teen to me women were the main driving characters. If the women weren’t around everything was boring and abit weird.

Of course it’s true, it’s what feminism was built on. You only have to look to the not so distant history to see that men see us as lesser - rape in marriage legal until the 90s, not be able to vote, get credit, etc. Now we’ve managed to even things up a bit, many men are angry about it and want us back ‘in our place’, hence the rise of that chinless, chain wanking twat, Andrew Tate and so much porn that shows women being abused.

What’s amazing to me is they still market themselves as providers, when in reality, it’s themselves they’re most keen to provide for, and as for protectors - my fucking arse!

the women are the main / real people who kept the wheels turning

of course. Men get the credit though, and benefit of all the unpaid work.

I really think this is true. I think it even applies to the loveliest of men be abuse its a socialisation thing.. some men would never say they think women are less than them.. in fact they'd never even actually think those words.. however they are raised to basically be the main character whereas women are raised to be kind and considerate and constantly think of others and constantly try and gauge people's reactions and emotions and react accordingly, raised to people please.. obviously thus is a generalisation and doesn't apply to absolutely everyone. But I do think there's a lot in it to say that girls are raised to see themselves as supporting characters in a group production whereas boys are raised as the main character.. the lead.. the hero. And these ideas sink into everyone so subtly some don't even realise they are there.
So yes there's loads of putright misogynistic men... but there's also loads of men who would never think of themselves as respecting women less but they do so innately because they were raised to put themselves centre stage

I don't disagree entirely, but I think men see "everyone" as lesser than themselves - they are far more individualistic and competition focussed than women (in general). So it's not that they see women as "other" - they see their own personal interest as above absolutely everyone else's.

I used to think it was generational, and things were getting better, but I am not sure that they are now. I know many nice men, but encounter loads of terrible ones in my work and some of the younger ones are the worst. Society is pushing people into being more egocentric / individualistic and coupled with lots of very poor role models I despair slightly.

The teen boys I come across are absolute knobs.

@standandeliveroo that's very true! Although as I was eavesdropping (working on computer while they were drinking coffee and chatting) I thought there might be some honesty in it

I think it's become quite competitive now, I think very little of men in general because of this and will only let a woman out at a junction because of all the unwarranted aggression I've had or seen from male drivers towards women from the comfort of their cars.
I also work for a lovely lady but I would never work under a man again from previous experiences.
I think we're going backwards in many ways since social media, men behave a lot worse from behind a keyboard where it seems a lot more acceptable to say or agree with what others are really thinking.

@Hubblebubble I think as others have said some men including my Dh have good intentions but may believe in equality and hold feminist beliefs but that doesn't necessarily translate into their actions or how they live in domestic partnership. Intention matters but actions speak louder than words.

@standandeliveroo yes I think it’s almost subconscious. My DH is a lovely man and it’s really hard to get him to understand this stuff.

I find this stuff easier to challenge at work, maybe become I don’t care as much! I have worked in lots of male dominated places. They will always try and put what they view as the nice stuff on you. For example organising a Xmas meal, doing birthday cards. I always resisted this, mainly because I don’t really care about that stuff so it was easy not to take it on. I find men look to women to make stuff generally nicer but don’t want to facilitate it themselves. Even stuff like making small talk or soothing awkward situations. I would always resist unless directly involved. Men think we exist to make the path of life smoother!

If we have jobs to do round the house, he will need me there to help him do "his job" while the things on my list are secondary

he'll them be miffed that I can't sit down with him when he is done

*he has an expectation that I will keep the house to a certain standard and cook nice food.

Posted too soon! I would not describe yours as a good marriage op, I would describe as (albeit "low level" "subtle" an abusive one esp in regards to the hangry crap!

He has trained you to keep the peace, your marriage is only "good" when you do as he expects (and not even always then as the hangry proves).

Frankly yes! Way too many men think of women and girls as lesser, as helper monkeys, as servants, as unimportant and undeserving.

No not all (and I am defo not an namalt person!) but the vast vast majority are!

Do those men assume it's a woman's job to organise birthday cards, or just someone else's job (because it's unnecessary and not in their job description)?

I have never once facilitated birthday cards or presents in a workplace. I don't care and it's never been my job. The people who've taken it on themselves to do it have usually been women and they haven't, to my knowledge, been asked to do it. I have no idea why they did it.

I think it's incredibly important for women to set other people's expectations of them. You control your own reputation. No man has ever expected me to run around facilitating him because I simply... wouldn't. The men around me can facilitate themselves.

I also don't think men look to women to smooth over awkward situations with small talk? Most men I've worked with are perfectly capable of small talk themselves better than me

Even when I encounter men unknown to me this is obvious, on the train, in the gym (especially the pool! The manspreadinv that goes on there does my nut in!).

Very few of the men I know well are actually good, decent men who treat women and girls with respect. I think it's not that surprising that 2 of these men were single parents for a considerable period of time before meeting their current spouses.

unfortunately, what you've been doing, just like I did, is reinforce the behaviour. yea I have to agree with this (and I say this as someone who did so myself in the past. No chance I'd do that shit now!)

I think if you know you are physically stronger than your partner it sets the power relation in stone.

Totally agree

because mum's are essentially mothering their children male and female in the much the same way

Not my observation at all! And I think a lot would disagree with that, plus fathers have a responsibility to parent well too and often don't. You then go on to describe how you and your brother were parented differently

He literally just washes. - lazy!

totally unfair to women generally to suggest that these days we should be looking at a more even split of mat leave.

I do think there's a case for arguing for mandatory paternity leave to be taken after mum returns to work of the same length of time as mums have, many reasons this would motivate huge changes in this patriarchal society.

Interesting, I actually sought out HRT because I was feeling annoyed at my DH a lot more often, mostly when I was running about doing chores while he was sat on his bum!

And so pathologising and treating yourself for a perfectly reasoned response to his laziness.

Now lazy people - I know lazy men and lazy women, and they all lean on whoever they are with.

Yes that's true and I certainly know a few lazy women too but it's mostly men!

some of the younger ones are the worst.

I definitely agree with this! My daughter is in her twenties and the horror stories I hear from her and her friends! Seems if anything things are going backwards and calling yourself a feminist isn't done.

This thread is so interesting. I posted upthread that in my relationship I do the typical male role of no housework/long hours at work - my husband does all the cleaning, cooking etc. So I don't believe this is always true for relationships.

HOWEVER I do believe a lot of men think women exist to serve them. I was sacked by a sexist boss when I was pregnant (before I told him I was pregnant he was promoting me) because he said "I probably wouldn't want to come back to work after having a baby".

I'm now in a much better job & organisation, but it was a horrible time. And a really eye opening experience for how sexist "normal" men can be.

Men in general have such bizarre expectations of women - that they are the caretakers, that they aren't ambitious etc etc.

You can't change men like this but I now avoid them at all costs