Do most men on some level see women as lesser than men?

[standandeliveroo]

I have a good marriage, we have been together for almost 30 years and we have a loving supportive marriage, I was recently ill and my husband did really look after me as I have done for him in the past.

However even in such a good marriage there are times I do feel like he sees me as a kind of supporting act to him in a way that I do not with him. If we have jobs to do round the house, he will need me there to help him do "his job" while the things on my list are secondary and that if he holds me up from doing my jobs he'll them be miffed that I can't sit down with him when he is done his chores. Its like I exist to facilitate him on some level and he has an expectation that I will keep the house to a certain standard and cook nice food. When we first got married he was appreciative of all these things I did and would thank me for the lovely food and cosy home I made for us on top of working but in time it all just became accepted and now all I get is ire if things slip. I also feel like I am supposed to help him manage his moods and emotions and smooth things over for him which of course I often don't mind doing because I do want to support him but I feel that in many ways he should be mature enough to manage his own moods most of the time e.g. he often gets hangry, getting into a bad mood when he is hungry, he is in his 40's and so I think he should know by now that he needs to eat before he gets this way but so often he doesn't and I end up bearing the brunt of his hangry moods or if I can I am trying to manage them, knowing he needs to eat before he does and so I'll feign hunger and a headache to ensure we stop for food like a mum trying to prevent her toddler from getting too hungry or tired.

I see and talk about the same types of things from the women I know in work and long time friends and it always feels like even the good men, still see women as their aids, as secondary to them in some way, second class human beings who's needs aren't quite as valid as theirs. I feel like perhaps most men are like this and do actually see women as appendages as opposed to fully human just like them.

I remember DH trying to do a lot of mansplaining when we got together. He still occasionally confidently holds forth on a topic he knows nothing about.

He definitely needs help (he thinks) with household tasks and doesn't like to do things on his own but I thought that was just his personality rather than a man thing.

He has his good points tbf and he does listen and take on board my points. If he ignored them or didn't change then there is no way I would stay

Tonight I finished work and came down to the sofa to find a hot water bottle ready for me because he was worried the living room was a bit cold and he knows I like a hot water bottle. he's sweet like that and most of the time the good outweighs the irritating

yes I can very well Imagine that was true many years ago. I remember my grandmother saying because the man of the house had been out at work doing hard manual labour all day he deserved the most food. women were definitely social conditioned to put everyone else before themselves and would feel terribly guilty if they didn't. I really saw this with my mother who had a couple of bad relationships with terrible useless men but she waited on them hand and foot and always put their needs before her own.

I think men often feel more entitled, and take what they want/ need without it ever genuinely occurring to them that the time/ opportunity/ freedom might come from someone else's sacrifice or oppression.

Even the best men I know do this, and it must be in part due to upbringing- men as boys are told to take what's theirs and ask for the best, and that they are innately special boys. A lot of mothers I've known are just more critical of their girls, and expect more of them for less praise.

Like when girls are expected to be neat and clean and well-kept, they aren't praised for it- it's expected of them. And they're criticized heavily if they're not.
So many parents just chuckle when their boys tear around and leave mess, and are full of praise if their son happens to tidy up by himself.

This is obvs a massive generalization- if you are raising your son to be better, I am thankful. This isn't aimed at you.

@sadsack78 It's true - I don't think my mum would have as many issues with me if I had been a boy.

I wonder is it is something to do with mothering, when you are female you model your own behaviours on your mother and so end up playing the caring, nurturing role to everyone including your male partner. While men look for that kind of behaviour from women in general and specifically their female partners.

I don't really know how you change that because mum's are essentially mothering their children male and female in the much the same way but how it is internalised is different depending on the child's sex.

@Onethingatatime23 I do think it's a man thing to some extent. Tonight while we were washing up after dinner DH washes the dishes and I dry. After he finishes eating he just gets up and walks to the sink to wash up, he doesn't lift a glass or his plate he just starts at the sink as its the washing up specifically that is his job. I dry but also gather up the plates, scrape off the plates, dry and put everything away and clean the kitchen after washing. He literally just washes. I've asked him to help tidy up a bit and get the plates piled up so they are ready to wash but he just wants to get on with "his job".

@sadsack78 It takes more work to be "well turned out" as a girl. My mum was a neat freak and hated my wild curly hair (inherited from my Dad as her hair was very straight) and she was always on my back about my appearance and looking unkept while for my brother he didn't have to look after his hair or keep his dress crease free! She also liked to tell me that my brother had "better legs" than me 😞

I also noticed my brother getting praise for things like washing up his own cup and plate or leaving his clothes for washing ready at a time my mum found convenient. I pointed out that I washed up everyone's dishes and put them away and did my own laundry but I always seemed to be doing it at the wrong time for my mum. I also sat and listened to her vent about her work and colleagues every night after dinner, while my Dad and brother just got up and walked off to watch football. It was pretty draining but as a girl your expected to do that kind of emotional labour, you never get any acknowledgement for it though.

I don't want to make you all think my mum was awful though she was overall a great mum but yeah way harder on me then on my brother.

Hmmm. I think dh sees me as his equal, but I think in general he judges certain stereotypical behaviours and things about women more harshly than things about men. He absolutely doesn't need or ask for help with household things, and never needed help or advice when in charge of the dc when they were little though. He's a confident, practical, capable person and would just work out what to do or make a decision.

I did almost all the household stuff for years as I worked very part-time. But the minute I went back to ft work, he immediately took on half the housework and is probably more reliable and efficient at doing it than I am tbh. He doesn't prioritise his own time over mine.

Love this comment

How would you feel about a woman who had an extra marital affair & moved into a different home from her children...only seeing them occasionally because she worked shifts.

Yup

Yup

My husband puts me first and holds me in much higher esteem than he holds himself and he thinks I am superior to him in all ways, apart from cooking skills.

Surely this is just the effects of the patriarchy on society being observed OP? I do agree with you I think the majority of men think like this deep down.

I do think there is a minority of men in younger generations now though (under 40 years old and down generally) who genuinely don’t see things this way and regard themselves as having an equal partnership with their wife/partner. Which is hopeful! My cousin is married to a man like this and I do cub scouts and work with a couple of men there who appear to me to operate like this too which is lovely to see. I think it is changing (glacially slowly but still at least moving in the right direction!)

You'd be much happier on your own.

This isn't acceptable.

Man boys are wasters who aren't worth your energy.

OH has always put me first, (other than when the girls were little and we both put them first). He's encouraged me to be the best I can be, helping me through studies and taking on the roll of main parent when I went back to work.

The differences that can be annoying are simple things like I do the decorating and a lot of minor chores. I just try and tell myself if I didn't do it it wouldn't get done. When I met him his kitchen and bathroom were spotless but his flat hadn't been decorated since he moved in and he seldom dusted of tided. It just wasn't important to him.

@C1N1CI’d be totally happy with all of that except for giving up the maternity leave. Which is because when I had my last baby I ended up very unwell with puerperal psychosis and I know I would absolutely need that time to recover physically and mentally from the pregnancy and delivery and aftermath!

I honestly think it’s completely mad and totally unfair to women generally to suggest that these days we should be looking at a more even split of mat leave. I’m not against people doing that or even the man taking the mat leave instead as long as that’s what the woman truly wants, but honestly I feel women will end up coerced into a situation where they’ve physically gone through pregnancy and labor and breastfeeding etc. and then have to go straight back to work while the man enjoys time off work with the baby having not had to suffer through or recover from any of that.

All men see women as lesser than men comma including the ones who pretend they don't. Sadly the vast majority of women also see women as less than men.

I think if you asked any decent bloke if he thought women are less important, he’d say of course not - and he’d mean it.

However, women WERE second class citizens for thousands of years, and there’s no way that can be wiped out in less than a century.

So yeah, on a day to day basis many men - especially Gen X and boomer men - do expect women to be running around after them, and what’s more many (feminist) women still fall into the trap of doing so. I think it’s mostly conditioning, but hormones play a part too.

It’s exhausting but the only thing is to pull him up on it, every single time. What I think also helps is to divide entire areas of responsibility (you do laundry, he dies the shooing and the packed lunches, you do insurance, he does the kids medical appts) - that way it’s much easier to push back.

The UN reckons it will take another 300 years for women to achieve equality, so you aren’t alone.

Maybe you could stick this on the kitchen pinboard
https://english.emmaclit.com/2017/05/20/you-shouldve-asked/

That the decent thing to do would have been to end the marriage beforehand rather than have an affair, put the children first and maintain a relationship with them?

I'm assuming this has happened to you? If so that's shitty and I'm sorry. I have also been burned, not in the same way but very cruel none the less.

By equal I don't mean excusing behavior, I mean in terms of a relationship it's equal and in responsibilities too, rather than leaving one to do the lifting or because I'm a man I should only do this or as they are a woman that is their job. There is no one is higher than the other or one knows best etc. Just two people who support one another.

Although I had this view, my marriage was not like this and actually ended up the other way around, a role reversal, doesn't change my views, though. I unfortunately ended up with not a nice person who saw themselves as higher than everyone and caused a lot of damage in the process.

I don't really think so, no.

I think that most people do at times think of other people around them as supporting roles in their show. Most only occasionally, some more often, and a few really do see everyone else as lesser than they are, and they treat them that way too.

@theduchessofspork Interesting, I actually sought out HRT because I was feeling annoyed at my DH a lot more often, mostly when I was running about doing chores while he was sat on his bum!

What statistics? I don't know a single woman who believes men are better.

@TempestTost It is probably less what men think they so or what they consciously think and what they actually expect from women that betrays that they see women as support for them as opposed to proper equals. Even the good one's who can talk a good game still leave the wife to do most of the shit work and mental load.