Do most men on some level see women as lesser than men?

[standandeliveroo]

I have a good marriage, we have been together for almost 30 years and we have a loving supportive marriage, I was recently ill and my husband did really look after me as I have done for him in the past.

However even in such a good marriage there are times I do feel like he sees me as a kind of supporting act to him in a way that I do not with him. If we have jobs to do round the house, he will need me there to help him do "his job" while the things on my list are secondary and that if he holds me up from doing my jobs he'll them be miffed that I can't sit down with him when he is done his chores. Its like I exist to facilitate him on some level and he has an expectation that I will keep the house to a certain standard and cook nice food. When we first got married he was appreciative of all these things I did and would thank me for the lovely food and cosy home I made for us on top of working but in time it all just became accepted and now all I get is ire if things slip. I also feel like I am supposed to help him manage his moods and emotions and smooth things over for him which of course I often don't mind doing because I do want to support him but I feel that in many ways he should be mature enough to manage his own moods most of the time e.g. he often gets hangry, getting into a bad mood when he is hungry, he is in his 40's and so I think he should know by now that he needs to eat before he gets this way but so often he doesn't and I end up bearing the brunt of his hangry moods or if I can I am trying to manage them, knowing he needs to eat before he does and so I'll feign hunger and a headache to ensure we stop for food like a mum trying to prevent her toddler from getting too hungry or tired.

I see and talk about the same types of things from the women I know in work and long time friends and it always feels like even the good men, still see women as their aids, as secondary to them in some way, second class human beings who's needs aren't quite as valid as theirs. I feel like perhaps most men are like this and do actually see women as appendages as opposed to fully human just like them.

Yes they do, in my experience.

I do think that men have a tendency to do this but I also think it’s up to us to advocate for ourselves and refuse to engage.

No.

Not my experience.

I think it's 50:50. There are many men who see women as lesser, but it could be argued many women put themselves into that position.

Obviously, there are exceptions, but women will typically/preferentially go for men who are: taller, stronger, older (more experienced?), earn more, more authoritative, more confident, more secure, smarter... these are all leadership qualities, which by default puts them into a follower/submissive position, no?

Men typically feel emasculated by these qualities in women.

The real question is, would your average woman 'want' to be in that dominant position? Taller or stronger than her partner? Older with someone more naive? Would they be happy being with a man who did the housework while they supported him? How many women would relinquish maternity leave for the man to look after the child while they go to work?

I'm basing this whole comment on stereotypes rather than my own opinions. I'm just interested to hear views :)

I do believe there’s a bit of truth to this. My husband does the while ‘I need help’ thing if he’s doing anything which annoys me as I’m doing other stuff at the time. So I usually refuse, say something arsey and we have a bit of a row. Thats fine, he needs a reminder I’m not his Mum - she facilitates everything to do with his Dad. The role models he had growing up were dire.

Undoubtedly it permeates our society, and this affects many men thoughts, feelings and actions whether they see it or not. Many insults aimed at men are gendered, for a reason. Then there's all the things a man is less likely to do/wear due to not being manly. As aspects of sexism not directly aimed at women, they all get less attention but they play important roles in the treatment of women. If any man doesn't see this, he's not paying attention and listening

To avoid any variation of "man hating" aimed at me, this is a male perspective. From observation of the world around me, and countless conversations with women I've known throughout my life

My DH would think he treats us entirely equally and I sometimes have to point out that's not actually true

A daft but recent example is the time we have our evening meal at

Until a few years ago he had a job where he was out and about a lot and came home at unpredictable times. I was home the same time each day, normally earlier than him and so our evening meal time was dictated to by how late he finished work. I had no issue with this.

Over the last 2 years that's changed. He is now consistently home by 5, I WFH but often need to finish a lot later. But now, instead of the meal time being dictated by my finish time, he's hovering around my office door trying to rush me to finish earlier because he wants the meal time dictated by when he finished work I.e. he wants a much earlier consistent meal time because he's finished work.

At one point I suddenly realised we were eating at 5:30pm every night which is far too early for me and meant I literally had to log off work dead on time and come straight down to eat because he had already cooked it without checking whether I was actually going to be free by then.

I had to point out that if I was willing to facilitate meal times around his work for years it wasn't too much to expect that I might be able to work past 5:30 occasionally and not be rushing so he can eat.

It's like he couldn't see any schedule that wasn't dictated by his work finish time regardless of what I was doing

When I was in my mid twenties my two male coworkers (same age) had a conversation about what type of woman they were looking for. Man A wanted someone to fit in with his life and go with the flow of what he wanted to do. Man B disagreed and he wanted someone with their own goals and hed find a lack of ambition off-putting. Different men want different things.

@Hubblebubble Well perhaps not all men although of course, what a man says and what he expects can be two very different things and either way I think most men fall into category A no matter what what they say.

I’d never thought of this before but it’s hit a nerve.

I have a sports club one evening a week and always prepare a meal and clean the kitchen before I go, so all DP and the DDs have to do is heat up the food when they’re hungry. I can’t in a million years imagine DP even thinking about what the rest of us will eat when he goes out!

The more I think about it the more examples there are, he does the asking for help thing and expects me to drop everything there and then. Also expects me to go to bed at the same time as him, as he works shifts that’s sometimes early, sometimes late.

I have a sports club one evening a week and always prepare a meal and clean the kitchen before I go

I had to slap myself when I noticed that I prepared the changing bag for DH every time he took the baby out. It was the first baby for both of us, I didn't know any better what I was doing!
So I stopped. He managed just fine, of course he did. Same with the rest, I have my hobbies and no I don't prepare breakfast or dinner when I'm out. I don't do anything to facilitate family life when I travel, just get my bag and go - they are fine. I would not expect to come back to feral children and bombsite for house. Not sure really what the situation would be, if I had kept doing everything.

I was once married to a man who definitely felt he was better than me in every way.

I'm now married to an equal, we have different strengths, but we are a great team. We're both women, which might make all the difference!

Women who are insecure bitch about other women.

Men who are insecure shit on women. Not men.

Yes I love my DH and he's very supportive generally but is similar to this - eg if he's angry or frustrated about something I have to listen, if I am then he seems to want to minimise or gloss over it. I blame his Mum, she spoiled him and still does a bit - favourite son!

not exactly the same but I'm sure it's linked - as per 'invisible women' even if men don't see women as lesser I agree they see male as the default, and anything to do with women is a slightly odd version of the standard.

Yes. I do a sport which men & women can take part equally. We are equal when it suits them (re money/tasks etc) but when it comes to knowledge & ability somehow men think they are better.

Yes. Yes. A thousand times Yes.

Some of your post could have been written by me.

He may genuinely need your help on certain things, but yes, it's true that some men expect you to be there as an assistant to them. Deep down, they are resentful for having to do a task and want to make sure that if their time is being 'wasted' on doing such menial things, then you are somehow involved and wasting your time as well. There are some women who rely on men to do things they're perfectly capable of doing, though, but generally this sort of thing might happen more to women because of male entitlement.

They get this messaging from an early age from stories and film. It's changing a bit, but a lot of leading female characters are simply there to support the male star's story line They are the vehicle by which male heroes fulfil their destinies, and are not full characters or persons of their own.

I also feel like I am supposed to help him manage his moods and emotions and smooth things over for him which of course I often don't mind doing because I do want to support him but I feel that in many ways he should be mature enough to manage his own moods most of the time e.g. he often gets hangry, getting into a bad mood when he is hungry, he is in his 40's and so I think he should know by now that he needs to eat before he gets this way but so often he doesn't and I end up bearing the brunt of his hangry moods or if I can I am trying to manage them, knowing he needs to eat before he does and so I'll feign hunger and a headache to ensure we stop for food like a mum trying to prevent her toddler from getting too hungry or tired

This is what I feel I could have written. It's so similar to my experience and I eventually I realised that the reason why I felt like he was hard work to spend time with was because it was like having to constantly manage a toddler. I was having to anticipate his needs because he made no attempt to address them on his own. I didn't want him to be grumpy, nasty or sullen. I stopped doing this when I looked at the situation from a more objective viewpoint and realised how fucked up that was.

Another ex called me bitch and cunt when he got hangry. It escalated as it wound him up that I'd stand up for myself and call him out on it, which I don't think he was used to at all. I think it's often an excuse to abuse and get away with it, linking it to a physical issue rather than it being part of their shitty personality. His mother and sister got the same from him.

You have done your job which is to support him lovingly, but unfortunately, what you've been doing, just like I did, is reinforce the behaviour. He has learnt that unpleasant behaviour and lack of care for you is rewarded by you managing his emotions for him. That needs to stop straight away.

Declare to him that you will no longer be anticipating his needs and moods like you would for a baby, and act on it. When you get so much as a whiff of nasty behaviour or 'hanger', disappear. I'm serious - get out of the house for a walk, or drive away, or at least leave him to go into another room. Refuse him any of your company, deny him an audience. If he tries to tempt you back and starts acting the same way again, repeat and leave him on his own for at least an hour or more.

Interested by his reaction when you pointed this out? Did he take it on board? I think yes most men view women as subordinate and therefore they interpret any challenge or complaint as an attack. I have come to conclusion I am actually quite afraid of men and their reactions to any challenge. I've never known one simply discuss something reasonably and agree to change. I think if you know you are physically stronger than your partner it sets the power relation in stone. It's a rare man who can see beyond that.

yes I find I also do the same when cooking and give dp the most meat etc. Then il make sure the dc have decent amount each and then whatever is left goes on my plate. I remember my mother and grandmother doing the same so suppose I've been conditioned to do that. I doubt dp would do the same if he cooked for me not that he ever cooks for me. we're both mid 40s.

He did take it on board and he has stopped. To be fair he is reasonable when things are pointed out but he never bloody bothers to work them out in the first place by himself

He's had to do a lot of unlearning over the last few years as he used to earn double what I earnt and now I earn well over double what he earns. It turns out all the things he thought were okay because he had the big important job with the long hours (no energy to do housework etc etc) were actually because he is a man. And suddenly when I am earning more and working longer hours he's not taking on the things that were "mine" previously without some discussion

I love him dearly and wouldn't leave him, but I am bi and I sometimes regret not ending up married to a woman. If something happened to him I very much doubt I would be in a relationship with a man again. Having to constantly point out his bias, even if he is willing to accept it and change, is exhausting.

It's even stupid things like his assumption that he knows how to set up a computer better than me despite him having done no research and me having a fucking masters in computer science. I sometimes ask him if he's thinking with his big manly balls or has he actually done any research, because he always assumes his totally unresearched opinions hold greater weight than my researched facts.

I'm sure I read somewhere that one of the (many) contributors to a high maternal mortality rate in working class families historically was due to women being more malnourished because they fed their husband and kids first and then they had what was left, and it often wasn't sufficient

Yes, if it creeps in, call it out. So if you’re expected to assist with DIY and you’re not getting something else done, then when the dIY is done, he needs to help with the other tasks. Insist on it. If mine tries to sit down. I tell him X needs doing and he does it. I find that vigilance is needed here …

If you aren't the star of the movie of your own life, who on earth else is?

@Moreempatheticmyarse you sound absolutely amazing and so patient. I found this kind of behaviour and the energy needed to manage it nearly sent me mad. I had to leave. My husband is much better now we are separated. He has had to step up and take responsibiltiy for himself and being a father and I quite admire how he's done that. Far too late for us though.