I can’t say anything to my DB about his parenting can I?

[Rainallnight]

Sorry, not sure if this is the right section but here goes!

I’m worried about my brother’s parenting. He has two small DC and is very critical of and strict with the eldest. He has a short fuse with her and I also think his expectations of her are way off for her age (5).

He is very, very like our father in this regard and I find it quite stressful to be around.

I can’t think of a way to broach it that won’t really offend him. And we do just have different ideas about parenting and he doubtless thinks I’m too soft.

But I worry about his long term relationship with the eldest, who will just tell him to fuck off when she’s a teenager if he carries on this way. Or else she’ll be scared and crushed (like I was!)

Would really appreciate some outside perspective.

Does your brother have any insight into your father's parenting style, and how scared and crushed it made you feel? Is he the kind of person is able to reflect on his own actions? Or is he one of those people who insists that he is right, no matter what?

How far off the mark is he with his expectations for a 5year old? Is it stuff that’s easy to prove? Like he’s giving her 6 instructions at once when 5 years olds aren’t going to be able to process more than 2 or 3 at once? Or like expecting her to regulate her emotions instantaneously instead of leaving her time to calm down/stop crying etc before doing whatever the next step needs to be?

I had this exact issue with my SIL and BIL (DH's sibling). I really struggled being around them and their small children and, like you, one of the issues was the triggering thing of being around people who parented like my parents did and how it made me feel.

We opted for not saying anything and trying to be good family members to them all.

Their kids are teens now, one seems ok but the oldest has gone wildly off rails.

SIL says she thinks their harsh parenting is part of the reason why and she says she regrets their lack of patience and that they didn't affirm the kids.

By not saying anything we protected our relationship with BIL and SIL which is important. And we spent lots of time with our nieces and nephews and tried to support and bolster them that way.

But it's very very hard to watch things going wrong in real time.

Yes, it’s this sort of thing. And really telling her off in a very over the top way for things which are perfectly normal 5 year old accidents or mistakes. He’s generally very irritable with them.

Tell her he's being emotionally abusive and it's a safeguarding concern.

I wouldn't pussyfoot around it.

He sounds like he's the kind of person to be an arsehole to you however you phrase it so you might as well just lay it out.

We’ve both done a lot of therapy and are very conscious of what our parents were like! So I’m surprised it’s turning out this way.

I had a similar experience with a friend. I’d occasionally say something like, ‘I wonder whether he is able to understand/process/empathise’ etc. That way, I wasn’t openly criticising her- more getting her to think about it from the small child’s perspective. I believe it worked because sometimes she would ask my advice about issues she was having.

Thank you - and to everyone so far - for such thoughtful replies. It’s really helpful to hear this experience. Do you feel like you did the right thing in the end?

If he has had therapy as a result of your father's parenting then I would most definitely tell him that he reminds you of your father. Doesn't he have any insight into how he is behaving?

I think when I was seeing him being unreasonable I would pull him up on it away from the child and in a non confrontational way. It's tricky but you saying something could be the trigger for him thinking about his behaviour and changing, if you don't say anything it will just continue.

I wouldn’t do this because it does not sound like a safeguarding concern, and he will think the OP is being daft and ignore anything she says after that.

I would talk to him OP, but take a couple of specific examples and explain why you think his expectations of the kids is too high. Explain that you felt this as a child and it make you feel X so you think it’s worth mentioning. Do not draw a direct comparison with your Dad, or get emotional. Do it as a shit sandwich, saying something to be clear that you know he is a dedicated father before and after the criticism.

Do you know what your SIL thinks about all this?

I would be inclined to say something in a calm non confrontational way. If you have kids yourself that you found at certain times you were repeating childhood patterns because it's what was familiar and your DH pointed out it was a needless level of strictness. You can see DB seems to be doing something similar and is overly strict about x and y.

My DH can go a bit OTT over small things because his parents would go WILD if they spilt/ broke /dropped/ knocked anything.... I basically said you are a wonderful dad but when accidents happen you turn into your DF and that's not okay.
Remember how he made you feel as a child...? Well that's how you are making DD feel and it's not okay for her and it's not okay for me.
He still needs prompts but has largely chilled out. DD is a whopping 20m now so you can imagine... He was harshly telling off a 14m old for throwing things on the basis she understands and knows she shouldn't 😵‍💫😵‍💫😵‍💫

Can you engineer a conversation where you talk about your dad's bad behaviour? Maybe mentioning a couple of things he did that are very similar to what your DB is doing now? You might find your DB clues in and realises how poor his parenting is without you actually having to be direct about it.

I think you do have to try to do something but primarily you need to preserve your relationship with his children. They will need you for support if he continues on this path of inevitability damaging them.

I don't know if we did the right thing. I think the kids suffered (especially the eldest). But would they have listened or cared if we had challenged them?

In a way the worst of it is how it affected the DC relationships with one another. I never saw a nice moment between the children and I don't know how their adult relationships are going to go.

But I don't really think you can intervene unless invited (excluding abuse obviously).

I think when it’s a clear thing like too many instructions, you can tell him almost no 5 year olds could follow that many instructions at once and so she’s not defying him by not carrying them out, she literally can’t process things like´Go and take your bag up to your room, fetch your jumper, bring it back down here and put on your coat and shoes so we can go - oh and brush your teeth too.’ You can always say that you read it in a book about child development or your child’s reception teacher told you about it.
Or if he’s shouting at her to stop crying because she was upset at being told no you can back him up on the no and at the same time point out she needs 5 minutes to calm down.

Basically you back him up on his decisions but at the same time point out that 5 year olds can’t handle xyz yet.

Is it worth saying "oh my, you really sounded like Dad then - I hate it when I hear myself sounding like Mum - Dad always used to say "stop crying or I'll give you something to cry about" [or similar catchphrase]"

This is really difficult. If he's had therapy about it already, this approach is presumably coming from something very deep within him, and he is going to react strongly whatever you say.

I've got more blunt as I've got older (and had more therapy) but I would find this very hard. I think I'd try to be as up front as possible. 'When I hear you say that to a five year old, I feel like I'm a kid again and feeling terrible because Dad is telling me off for normal things. I'm worried about it. Are you doing OK?'

Seriously, why pussyfoot around this. Be forthright and defend your niece. Do it in front of his wife.

I think, for the sake of the children and the eldest in particular, you need to say something. To him and his partner, initially, and if the behaviour doesn't change, to the school and social care. Explain there is a familial history of emotional abuse which your brother is continuing to perpetrate.

Would he be open to reading a parenting book, do you think? "The book you wish your parents had read" by Philippa Perry covers this exact issue. You could maybe say that you've read it yourself and found it really helpful to stop you repeating the same mistakes your parents made.

How do you think it would go across framing it as the impact on you? ‘Dbro, that scene made me really uncomfortable. It felt like me, wiht our dad where I was being given 6 things to do at once and I can’t possibly remember them all and so then of course I’ve failed and didn’t he let me know it. I know you’d never inentionally parent like him but he didn’t intentionally make me feel so scared and inadequate either and to be honest I’m just really upset. I better go.’

It is impoasible for any of us to know without more detail - specific examples perhaps?
It may be the op's expectations that are too low .

I probably would ask to talk to him, kindly and warmly take him out for a meal alone and explain how much you love him and that you want to talk to him because you’re worried about his relationship with the kids as he seems to be repeating his fathers parenting. Talk about the bits of parenting you found difficult and how you reflected or sourced information to parent differently. maybe recommend a book or two. If you can be honest about your struggles and he can be honest about his struggles, you should be able to explore the issue

Exactly this. I think it must be very hardwired into him for it to be coming out like this. He’s under a good deal of stress at the moment which is probably making it worse, which, again, is exactly like our father.

I know I have some of my mother’s unhelpful behaviours very hardwired into me (which are to do with my relationship with DP rather than my parenting) and it’s a huge struggle to overcome them.

I like your combination of framing it as concern for him as well as the parenting.

For both of us, someone accusing us of turning out just like them (in these specific respects) is just about the worst thing that could happen so he’d have a hugely strong
reaction to it.