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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Is there hope for my husband? Covert Narc? DARVO?

30 replies

Etam · 01/10/2023 23:06

Apologies if this is long, but I'll try to set the scene so no one can come back and say I'm drip feeding Confused

Is it possible for someone to be a covert narcissist and use DARVO tactics without them being aware of it? Is there a way to highlight my husbands issues to him and the damaging (I assume?) effect it's having and on me and the children that will make him realise and want to change?

Husband believes he is the greatest dad in the world. Admittedly he does do an incredible amount for the children and I. He runs his own business mainly working from home, does 60% of the pick up and drop offs, takes them to their activities if I'm working, spoils them by buying them the newest latest toys, bikes and 'things', works to send them to private school, etc.

But... he's got a lot of issues that have caused me an immense amount of distress and I can see now he's starting to treat DC1 the same way, meanwhile DC2 sees all the chaos going on.

I have diagnosed ADHD (and most likely undiagnosed ASD). It's likely both my children do as well. DC1 is really starting to struggle now that they're in secondary school. Can't focus on work or tasks that are asked of them, homework takes hours to do because they're constantly getting distracted, they can't sit still or be quiet at home and are always getting up, singing, making strange repetitive sounds, complaining that they don't understand, etc. Time at home is a nightmare. In addition. They experience anxiety, don't understand social cues or tone of voice, have low self esteem, constantly asking if we like them, making comments saying they're stupid, saying they wish they were dead (but they always worry about dying). It breaks my heart into 1000 pieces when I see my then struggle. DC2 is still quite young so they don't seem to be struggling as much.

My husband refuses to acknowledge that there is anything 'different' with my children and refuses to let me seek help to get them an ADHD diagnosis. When I highlight the fact that I've been diagnosed with ADHD as an adult and mention it's hereditary he flips out and yells at me saying "they're nothing like you" and gives examples about how outgoing the children are and what things they're good at. He has threatened me with divorce when I've tried to get them help.

Over the past year or so I've become increasingly convinced that my husband is both a covert narcissist who often uses the DARVO technique and gaslighting. If we have an argument or I manage to prove him wrong by stating a supporting fact, he gets very angry with me and always has to flip the argument onto me so I'm the bad one and he becomes the victim. He cannot take any form of criticism. Most arguments end up with him flipping it on me and focusing on the fact that my salary is awful and I don't make enough money.

For example the other day two of my DC1's friends needed a ride home from school because their father never showed up to collect them. Husband had gone to go collect DC1 and they asked if husband could give the other two children a ride home. Husband said ok and took them home, but the door was locked and no one was home. Husband called me from the car irate yelling at me saying that 'he doesn't have time for this, and how he's so stressed and has to run a business' he was yelling and told me that 'you (me) need to deal with this and it's my fault because their mother is my friend' Confused

He is always the victim and he sees injustice in everything. From extended family never inviting him and his single parent mum along on holiday with them (and even still now not being invited as a fully grown adult on their family holidays). He's always reminding us how much he does for us, how he does far more than any other dad, that he 'won't be around forever' etc.

Below are only a few things he's said to me (keeping in mind I have ADHD (diagnosed at 40, so under achieved and felt like a failure my entire life with poor mental health):

•	You just need to try harder
•	You don’t remember because it’s not important to you

You need to contribute more
You don’t care
• You’re in your own world
• I don’t get you
• You cause me so much stress
• we’re not meant to be together
• You’re holding me back
• You need to step up and be a parent
• You don’t care about the kids otherwise you would have known X,Y,Z
• I’m done with you
• You’re no help
• I will never forgive the stress you put me through
• you bring everyone down with your negative energy

And things he says to DC1 when he's frustrated:

•	“I’m done”
•	“I’m done with you”
•	“I’m leaving”
•	“I’ve had enough”
•	“What’s going on with you”
•	“What’s wrong with you” 
•	“I give up with you”
•	“Stop fishing for compliments”  (when DC1 puts themself down or says negative things about themself)

I do everything for you
• Why is it so hard for you to listen?
• You destroy me
• Why do you do things just to get a reaction?
You’ve got life too easy
• You’ve got no discipline
Your tears mean nothing to me. You don’t take things seriously
Can you just grow up a bit. You’re very immature for your age.
• You love getting negative attention
What’s going on with you!?!
• You’re not thinking straight
• You’re really lacking focus right now
• You’ve really got some listening issues

No matter what husband is always the victim. He says he's never appreciated. People don't care about him. We'll never find anyone else that does as much as him. We'll never appreciate him until he's gone. Over the years and the way he's treated me I've lost almost every ounce of sympathy and emotion for him. I think to protect myself because I can never be right or good enough I have built up a wall and just try to ignore him most of the time as best I can - at least in front of him. So I am probably colder and less sympathetic and emotional towards him which annoys him because he thinks he's the shit.

He loves our children more than anything and I know he does try and do all he can to provide for them and only wants the best for them. So I don't think he's not consciously aware that he's a supreme asshole. I'm wondering if there's hope for him. Is there a way to get him therapy or show him some videos that will make him realise his behaviour is toxic?

OP posts:
Somanycats · 01/10/2023 23:15

No, there's no way you can get him therapy if he doesn't see the need. And stop diagnosing your family (all of them) with mental health conditions. It's not your job. If you honestly believe there is something amiss with your children then pursue an assessment. That is your job and your husband cannot prevent it.

Redlarge · 01/10/2023 23:15

He loves him self and the kudos from the dad/business owner projection to others. Hes a cunt and a bully.
Narcasists love adhd partners.

Redlarge · 01/10/2023 23:17

No

There is no help as he won't accept that his actions are other than perfect. You get help tho, take full responsibility for his behaviour and everything else. Thats what he will be happy with, plus the label that he is such a god putting up with his nutty wife

ThisWormHasTurned · 01/10/2023 23:20

Is it possible to be a covert narcissist and not realise it? Yes, absolutely. Narcissists believe they’re perfect and will never question if they are narcissistic. Can you raise it and get him to change? I’d doubt it. If I were in your position (actually I was, even to the point that I’m ND too), I’d grey rock, get my ducks in a row. Try to get a set up where you’re doing more than 50% custody. Break free. Best thing I ever I did for me and my DC.

Etam · 01/10/2023 23:24

Somanycats · 01/10/2023 23:15

No, there's no way you can get him therapy if he doesn't see the need. And stop diagnosing your family (all of them) with mental health conditions. It's not your job. If you honestly believe there is something amiss with your children then pursue an assessment. That is your job and your husband cannot prevent it.

I have tried! 3 separate times. Each time he finds out. I told him the first time, second time he opened the referral letter from the Dr, third time the Dr sent him the confirmation text and he called and cancelled the whole thing and threatened me with divorce. He threatens me with divorce once or twice a year out of anger. But in reality I think he's petrified to lose me. He doesn't like me spending time with one of my close friends because she's going through a divorce and is a 'bad influence on me' Confused

I am currently trying to figure out a way to get both my children referred to be assessed but I'm scared after the previous times and he's drilled it into me that I'll be ruining their life. I know this sounds stupid to most people that I just don't have the balls and confidence to do it, but years and years of him yelling at me and threatening me and insisting I'll be ruining my children's lives gets to me 😔

OP posts:
Loubelle70 · 02/10/2023 05:26

DD had my GS assessed and he was diagnosed with ADHD SPD AUTISM. It has helped because he now can he prescribed melatonin so can sleep better...he was getting 2 hrs sleep tops...now its 7 hours. DD had a husband who objected to her getting a diagnosis for her son. She divorced him and got help for DC, he was her priority.

GlowingBear · 02/10/2023 05:32

@Redlarge I’m curious to hear why Narcissists love ADHD partners? I’m interested for myself but it may help the OP as well

PragmaticWench · 02/10/2023 05:43

I think you should visit your GP, in person not a telephone appointment, and explain that you want to refer the children but your DH is abusive. The GP should be able to make a note on the system to stop notifications going to your DH.

Redlarge · 02/10/2023 06:28

GlowingBear · 02/10/2023 05:32

@Redlarge I’m curious to hear why Narcissists love ADHD partners? I’m interested for myself but it may help the OP as well

www.unmaskingnarcissism.com/adhd-and-narcissism/

This is just one article but ive come accross a lot and my psychiatrist and doctor have also pointed out my vulnerabilities ... isolation, eager to please, dopamine chasing (when they are nice to you) ability to motivate yourself to care for/make sure others are ok whilst unable to do it for yourself
An overwhelming feeling of why am i so useless that leads you to easily believe the narcissists put down and control. Its a match made in heaven for narcs, absolute hell for adhd.

Redlarge · 02/10/2023 06:30

PragmaticWench · 02/10/2023 05:43

I think you should visit your GP, in person not a telephone appointment, and explain that you want to refer the children but your DH is abusive. The GP should be able to make a note on the system to stop notifications going to your DH.

Not necessarily. If hes like my ex he will exercise parental responsibility and even though you would hope that safeguarding overrides this, in my experience and with multiple agencies it never has.

ThisWormHasTurned · 02/10/2023 06:32

Narcissists are drawn to people who are co-dependent, have a history of trauma. Neuro-divergent folk have a tendency to fit into that category, especially if we were late diagnosed. We are vulnerable to fall for the nice guy (okay yes some women but statistically more men) act early on. Caroline Strawson is an expert in recovery from narcissistic relationships and she talks about this in more detail.

GlowingBear · 02/10/2023 07:11

@Redlarge and @Thewormhasturned thank you both so much. That really helps me understand my own situation. Off to find Caroline Strawson

Theunamedcat · 02/10/2023 07:18

Can yhe school not refer? He won't like looking bad infront of them

RantyAnty · 02/10/2023 07:20

You and your children are being abused by this toxic bully.

That is the likely cause of your children's behavior.

No, he won't change.

Watchkeys · 02/10/2023 07:24

I think that looking for 'hope for your husband' is a bit of a misnomer. He's happy as he is, and isn't looking for hope to be cured, or to realise how he is, or to recognise the damage he's doing. He wants to be who he is, and he's willing to be abusive to maintain that. It doesn't really matter what name you give it. It's a very simple situation: Cross him, and he will abuse you, and your children.

You can't get help for someone to get them to see that they need to change. He knows that that list of quotes isn't 'good for' his children. He doesn't care.

How would you feel if he was trying to get you into therapy to change how you are and how you treat people? Would you meekly accept that you needed to change because someone else said you would, even though you thought you were fine?

Take him for what he is. He's abusive to you and your children. Stop trying to diagnose and fix him. It doesn't matter how you label his habit of being abusive: he has a habit of being abusive, and that's it. You need to show your kids that the thing to do when being abused is walk away. If you don't, they will stay with abusers themselves, as adults, rather than realising that leaving is an option.

Gloriously · 02/10/2023 07:34

Him preventing medical intervention for your DC is one example of coercive and controlling behaviour which is illegal.

Read up on that if you need justification to validate your own feelings.

Not sure why you see him as a covert Narc - seems pretty overtly tyrannical to me.

It must be horrific for your DCs. Some might suggest that their inability to concentrate etc is due to hyper vigilance that they need to be ‘on high alert’ due to the threatening and hostile environment they live in. This is huge emotional abuse for you all.

As others have said don’t waste your breath (it will back fire) - get support for yourself privately - WA, therapist, GP, solicitor and get all your ducks in a row quietly before you tell him.

Dont waste your finite emotional energy and headspace diagnosing him - use it to protect your DC by secretly plotting your way out - so you have enough time and space to invest in rebuilding the damage this situation has inflicted on your DCs.

Lots of support online. Get support and know your goal.

Etam · 02/10/2023 12:26

Loubelle70 · 02/10/2023 05:26

DD had my GS assessed and he was diagnosed with ADHD SPD AUTISM. It has helped because he now can he prescribed melatonin so can sleep better...he was getting 2 hrs sleep tops...now its 7 hours. DD had a husband who objected to her getting a diagnosis for her son. She divorced him and got help for DC, he was her priority.

Yes my DC1 used to be fantastic with bedtime routines, but since secondary they're really struggling to wind down. It's often 11pm-12am by the time they're asleep. I know that's not nearly as bad as the 2hrs your DD was getting, but it's still far from enough and they're painfully cranky in the mornings.

OP posts:
Etam · 02/10/2023 12:29

PragmaticWench · 02/10/2023 05:43

I think you should visit your GP, in person not a telephone appointment, and explain that you want to refer the children but your DH is abusive. The GP should be able to make a note on the system to stop notifications going to your DH.

I have made specific requests to have them only reply or contact me using my phone number and not my husbands number. I've had them ask to add specific notes into their system about this and to the GP, but they still fuck it up 😖

OP posts:
Etam · 02/10/2023 12:36

Theunamedcat · 02/10/2023 07:18

Can yhe school not refer? He won't like looking bad infront of them

My DC masks very well at school but it all goes to shit when they get home. Husband has drilled it into me that I will be fucking up their reputation at school by involving them and getting a diagnosis now and I'm so scared if that would actually happen. DC loves their school, but it's private so I'm worried that they'll see DC1 as a trouble maker or label them or at worst force them to leave.

Husbands behaviour and tactics have done such a number on my mental health I don't trust my judgement anymore and constantly second guess myself. I constantly stress and go over scenarios in my head because of it, never knowing what is the right decision 😔

OP posts:
TheBaddestTurkeyInTown · 02/10/2023 12:38

Somanycats · 01/10/2023 23:15

No, there's no way you can get him therapy if he doesn't see the need. And stop diagnosing your family (all of them) with mental health conditions. It's not your job. If you honestly believe there is something amiss with your children then pursue an assessment. That is your job and your husband cannot prevent it.

ADHD isn’t a mental health condition. It is also hereditary and if OP sees it in her kids then it js extremely likely that they have ADHD brains!

TibetanTerrah · 02/10/2023 12:42

You keep saying he threatens you with divorce like it's a bad thing Confused

Just say 'ok'? He's abusive, and using the 'threat' of divorce to control you.

At least you can pursue a diagnosis for your DC if you're away from him.

TheBaddestTurkeyInTown · 02/10/2023 12:43

The Verbally Abusive Relationship (Patricia Evans) is a very good read and could be a starting point for you to understand what is actually happening in your relationship and why you are not to blame.

TheBaddestTurkeyInTown · 02/10/2023 12:44

Etam · 02/10/2023 12:29

I have made specific requests to have them only reply or contact me using my phone number and not my husbands number. I've had them ask to add specific notes into their system about this and to the GP, but they still fuck it up 😖

Can you get the money together for a private assessment, without your DH knowing?

Etam · 02/10/2023 12:50

TibetanTerrah · 02/10/2023 12:42

You keep saying he threatens you with divorce like it's a bad thing Confused

Just say 'ok'? He's abusive, and using the 'threat' of divorce to control you.

At least you can pursue a diagnosis for your DC if you're away from him.

Well yes, to me it's a bag thing because of many reasons. Although I would love to leave him I just financially cannot afford to do that. I have zero savings, zero money, no assets, etc. Yes I would be entitled to half of the house but that's not all that much and I would struggle to provide for myself and the children. I do not want to take them away from their school and friends. It would also mean that I would be making myself susceptible to my husband bad mouthing me to the children when I'm not around. He's very passive aggressive and often mutters out downs and negative things about me under his breath ensuring their just loud enough for others to hear them. 😔

I don't expect most people to understand the position I'm in. LTB is a lot easier said than done. Having ADHD, poor self esteem, a low paying job, no savings and other money issues, being crap at life admin and understanding the legal system are just some of the issues I'd be facing. I worry myself sick sometimes going through my options and seeing how bad life would be. If I could leave, other than mental freedom from him myself and the children would really suffer

OP posts:
Etam · 02/10/2023 12:51

TheBaddestTurkeyInTown · 02/10/2023 12:43

The Verbally Abusive Relationship (Patricia Evans) is a very good read and could be a starting point for you to understand what is actually happening in your relationship and why you are not to blame.

Thank you. I will look that up

OP posts: