Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Original poster

Is it selfish to have kids? I don't know what to say!

36 replies

happyaslarrywhoeverlarryis · 30/09/2023 20:21

A good friend asked me this question recently and I didn't know what to say! For context, friend is married, biological clock is ticking but she has three very serious chronic health conditions - one of which has a risk factor of sudden death.

On a day to day basis she is mostly ok and lives a 'normal' life (whatever that is) but on a 'bad day' she's immobile from pain for anything up to a few weeks and on paper, at least, one of the conditions is only likely to get worse with a prognosis that at some point she might be totally immobile.

She desperately wants to have kids and her DH is largely supportive but has some concerns, like how would he cope if he had to be main breadwinner as well as main carer for children? All legitimate questions!

My friend asked me recently what I thought and I guess invited me into the conversation. My gut feeling is that having little ones is overwhelmingly more tiring and stressful than you can ever imagine. Add that to underlying illnesses, it's going to be doubly/triply hard but does that mean it's impossible?

I don't know how to answer my friend (I told her this) but part of me is scared for how this would pan out should she get pregnant and have a baby.

Is there ever a point (do you think?) where someone shouldn't have a baby? What would you say to my friend?

OP posts:
NewNameNigel · 30/09/2023 20:25

There's an argument that says that it's selfish for anyone to reproduce given the state of the environment. If you wouldn't like a friend saying this to you if you desperately wanted a baby then don't say it to your friend. It's really not your decision.

Ididivfama · 30/09/2023 20:25

Is she actually able to have kids? Does she have a good support network?
She should talk to her gp about the physical practicalities and make arrangements with her husband and family for help. It is possible I’m sure but it’s up to her. There’s no way you can really answer that question!

Lelophants · 30/09/2023 20:27

NewNameNigel · 30/09/2023 20:25

There's an argument that says that it's selfish for anyone to reproduce given the state of the environment. If you wouldn't like a friend saying this to you if you desperately wanted a baby then don't say it to your friend. It's really not your decision.

I disagree. The human race dying out won’t solve anything, the planet is already doomed. Especially the havoc in the short term.

I agree it’s always selfish in a sense though. You have kids because you want them (generally). Nobody is a perfect parent.

Original poster
happyaslarrywhoeverlarryis · 30/09/2023 20:27

NewNameNigel · 30/09/2023 20:25

There's an argument that says that it's selfish for anyone to reproduce given the state of the environment. If you wouldn't like a friend saying this to you if you desperately wanted a baby then don't say it to your friend. It's really not your decision.

I totally agree that it's none of my business but because she asked for my opinion, I wasn't sure what to say. 😬

OP posts:
Aquamarine1029 · 30/09/2023 20:30

I would tell your friend that your opinion is irrelevant. What she and her husband have to decide is if they are both all in for having a child, and this applies to any couple, regardless of known disabilities. Any of us could become disabled at any time, leaving our partner to bear the brunt of child rearing. If her husband isn't willing to carry the entire load of parenting and financially supporting the family, then they shouldn't have kids.

PinkRoses1245 · 30/09/2023 20:33

Honestly - I think she needs to consider the worse case scenario(s), and how children would be looked after. Perhaps talk to her Gp to. That’s the advice I’d give.

PaintedEgg · 30/09/2023 20:37

I'd say there is an element of selfishness regardless of other factors - most people have children because they want to...which is, arguably, a good reason. children should be wanted

and everyone, absolutely every single person, has some sort of "reason" that could be used against this decision, and yet people still have children.

so if your friend and her husband think they can cope, even with the worst case scenario, then she would be no more selfish than anyone else who has children

NewNameNigel · 30/09/2023 20:37

The human race dying out won’t solve anything, the planet is already doomed. The human race dying out won’t solve anything, the planet is already doomed

The planet will be fine, it's us that are doomed.

And on that cheery thought....

HappyHamstersinHats81 · 30/09/2023 22:25

Anyone who chooses to have kids (or chooses not to) will have some selfish reasons…. very few decisions are selfless … E.g. I give blood, it’s a lovely positive thing to do but I absolutely like the feeling of ‘doing a good thing’ (and eating guilt free biscuits after!)

But actually who cares….it’s not always bad to acknowledge that we do things because they’re what we want to do (and the nature of doing what we want is selfish).

Kinda sounds like your friend needs to ask about the practical possibility of a baby before worrying about the morality… babies are hard! And you’ve said she has health conditions, pregnancy might not be easy.

ShakeVigorouslyNow · 01/10/2023 03:34

To be honest a lot of parents shouldn't have reproduced, it is inherently selfish to want children but it's also very common and natural drive and the reason humans continue to populate this earth. So if it is an intrinsic drive done by the majority, is it still selfish or just the way we were built?
Anyway, it's selfish if her husband doesn't want children knowing how much he will need to step up. It's selfish to.force it on him but if he was happy with it and if they have the means and support network, fine.

I think it's worse being an emotionally unavailable parent than a parent who does the practical stuff but neglects you emotionally.

FrozenGhost · 01/10/2023 03:41

If a friend asked me this, I'd probably say that it's selfish for anyone to have children, it literally is because it's only for yourself and doesn't help anyone else. But sometimes it's OK to be selfish.

14blackcrows · 01/10/2023 03:58

People now days act like having kids is some kind of personal choice and obviously it is to a greater extent than it was in the past.. but it's still also just a biological reality. It's a fact of life. So I don't think it can ever really be argued as being selfish... anymore than not killing yourself could be argued as selfish.
It's a bit of a silly way of framing things I think. Especially as it's not as in our control as we think it is.
I'm biased because I was on contraception with all 3 of my children. So technically I didn't choose to be pregnant.. I guess I chose not to have abortions.. but I don't view that as a total choice as it doesn't undo pregnancy.. and it's often a hard thing to do that no woman should be shamed or coerced into doing if she's not 100% happy with it.
And I just wasn't able to do that.
Your friend doesn't know the future. She might outlive her husband.. you just don't know the ups and downs life will throw at you no matter how hard you try and prepare.. no one does.
My dad dropped dead out of literally nowhere last year.. no medical issues.. no sign he was ill.
I've got a friend who'd lost both her parents by the time she turned 18. It's been hard for her but she's a lovely person whose happy to be alive and doing well in her life.
Basically what I'm trying to say is we can guess but we can't actually predict the future..and having children is a natural biological instinct. Its neither selfish nor altruistic it just IS.
If your friend wants a child and so does her husband they should have one. The child will be loved.. it may face certain struggles, it may not... but then again all children will face struggles of various types in their life.. there are very few people out there who've not experienced something difficult

HoneyBadgerMom · 01/10/2023 04:16

Wow, that is a hard one. Because once you have them, you realize the Herculean responsibility that comes with being a Mommy. You are the real safe space. There is ONE instance of unconditional love in my life, and that is my love for my son. Everyone else has to be nice, including me to him, but I will always love him, no matter what. I hope that's a comfort to him. It would have been to me.

That said, to risk them losing their Mommy would scare me. But another truth is that a mother's love never, ever stops. Death is nothing compared to a mother's love. So while they may lose her, they will know that for all eternity, her love for them is constant and never, ever changing. And a little while of wonderful is better than a lifetime of just ok.

I think the husband will be pleasantly surprised at how well he will handle career and children. ❤

XDownwiththissortofthingX · 01/10/2023 04:26

The only reasons for having children are invariably self-interested ones, so yes, it is fundamentally a selfish act to have children, but it doesn't follow that it is driven by a nasty, inconsiderate type of selfishness.

Just ask anyone why they had children. All the answers will be about "we/I/Us/Family" etc, so self-interest. Nobody has children for other people's benefit, and if they are seriously trying to claim they did, then you need to question that person's ability to make reasonable decisions, as well as their motivations for having children.

Is there ever a point (do you think?) where someone shouldn't have a baby?

Yes, absolutely.

Any situation whereby there is not 100% certainty about the prospect. Any situation whereby there is not 100% buy-in. Any situation whereby the prospective parent is not 100% willing to completely forego the rest of their independent life in favour of being a full-time, 100% present parent.

There are so many factors that are entirely beyond your control, that unless you are fully, unequivocally able to commit 100% to all of the above, then you should not be having children. To do otherwise is to leave yourself wide-open to unhappiness, regret, resentment, and a ruined life.

iloveeverykindofcat · 01/10/2023 05:31

I mean, technically, yes. You have a child because you want one. You can't have a child for the benefit of the child (which doesn't exist yet). Hopefully, the child's life will be more pleasurable than painful, but you don't know that in advance. But that doesn't make it immoral (necessarily. Obviously there are some circumstances under which it is immoral, but that's another post). Most of what humans do is "selfish". Even pro-social behaviours are ultimately a form of enlightened self interest. If anything, that should reassure your friend - by choosing to have a child, she's not necessarily behaving any more selfishly than anyone else.

Noicant · 01/10/2023 07:09

I didn’t understand how relentless having small kids are until I had one. She will most likely struggle tbh. I think it is selfish when you know that you aren’t going to be able to care for your children without a lot of help. It’s not just what you want it’s how it would impact your hypothetical children. If she’s sometimes unable to do much for a few weeks at a time the strain of looking after a child would be pretty awful. Her DH is right to be worried about possibly being a in sole charge of a child and working, it’s not easy but tbh theres a good chance he cares for his wife a lot already, does he have capacity to work full time, care for his wife and a baby?

I’’m sorry that sounds really blunt, I have a chronic mental health condition which has impacted my parenting and on reflection I may have not been the best person to have children. My child is happy and healthy with 2 engaged parents but still it does take a mammoth effort from me sometimes to try to shield her from my problems.

EnoughIsay · 01/10/2023 07:14

Lelophants · 30/09/2023 20:27

I disagree. The human race dying out won’t solve anything, the planet is already doomed. Especially the havoc in the short term.

I agree it’s always selfish in a sense though. You have kids because you want them (generally). Nobody is a perfect parent.

Show quote history

The planet will be fine - it will continue to do what it is doing and a new itteration will come.

We, on the other hand...

Petunia90 · 01/10/2023 07:19

We're told we're selfish if we don't have children and called all sorts of names, we're selfish if we do have them... you really can't win either way.

Cherryberrypie · 01/10/2023 07:45

I developed an autoimmune disease at the age of 45. My kids were adults by the time I was diagnosed. Now I worry that I might have passed on an incredibly painful condition to my kids.

Also, no way could I give them the active life they deserved if I had got sick before having them.

I would not have had kids if I had known there was any chance I could pass on my condition.

I have a good friend who was born with cystic fibrosis. She has decided 100% never to have kids for the same reason.

PerfectMatch · 01/10/2023 07:50

I would advise your friend to talk to people who have her condition(s) as they will find it easier to be honest about how hard it is. Are there any support groups that she could contact?

AgentProvocateur · 01/10/2023 07:54

It’s selfish to have kids knowing that they will more than likely end up as child carers. I get that anything can happen to anyone at any time, but knowing that you’re going to lose your mobility, I think it is selfish to have kids. That said, I have every sympathy with your friend for wanting children

Holly60 · 01/10/2023 07:54

NewNameNigel · 30/09/2023 20:25

There's an argument that says that it's selfish for anyone to reproduce given the state of the environment. If you wouldn't like a friend saying this to you if you desperately wanted a baby then don't say it to your friend. It's really not your decision.

That's a bit different to having a child that you know that you won't physically be able to care for from the get go.

I don't know if selfish is the right word but having her own biological child may not be realistic for her. Very sad but that would be my honest opinion.

ludocris · 01/10/2023 07:59

Having children is not selfish. I see this said all the time on MN. It's a biological imperative. The overarching objective of all species since the dawn of time has been to procreate.

Thequeenofthetypis · 01/10/2023 08:03

It's probably not a great idea for your friend to have kids in her health circumstances. Pregnancy and child birth can have negative physical impact on even the healthiest of bodies.
But should you be the one to tell her that?
Absolutely not!!!
Tell her you don't know the answer, direct her towards her hcp/gp/ whatever professional helps her manage her health conditions.

Thequeenofthetypis · 01/10/2023 08:06

I presume her dh is also concerned about the possibility of her sudden death, kids or no kids. He definitely needs to speak up. If she asks again just keep asking her
" what does dh think"?