racist views tolerated within mixed family

[dollygrip]

I have elderly parents (80s) , who whilst fairly independent are beginning to require a bit more help, which my husband and me are happy to offer, and we visit weekly.

They have 4 grandchildren, 2 from my late brother, 2 from me. The mother of my DNs is of a different ethnicity so my niece and nephew are mixed race, and my own DH is of another different ethnicity, so my own DDs are also mixed. They are all young adults. Over the years he has apparently been a generally good and loving grandfather.

The issue I have is that my father in particular keeps coming out with remarks that are racist. A few years ago I wouldn't have thought he would have said stuff like this. For instance on selling a house, 'Were the buyers Asian? I wouldn't be surprised if they messed you around'. (buyers were white English actually, but that's irrelevant). This kind of remark. And he has no compunction in saying this in front of his own, partly Asian grandkids. Whom he purports to love dearly. I find it very distressing. I did phone and challenge him about it a few months ago, but just got huffing and 'are you saying I'm racist then?'. No apology. He is quick to call other people racist, and I am sure in his own eyes he is not. He also makes homophobic and sexist remarks. But he gets on fairly well with my husband. And with his gay hairdresser. So I suppose he thinks as he does not treat individuals badly, it is all right to continue making these sorts of remarks.

They had a friendship lasting decades with a couple. A few years ago they were invited round to this couple's house and told me sadly afterwards how the couple had made racist remarks throughout the day 'even though they know about our family'. I assume they didn't challenge the couple though. They insisted on continuing the friendship though, and acted as though I was unreasonable when I suggested they not be invited to an event they were hosting. The wife died a few months ago and they have been talking to the husband on the phone a lot to offer emotional support. Dad mentioned this the other day 'poor old X, he's a good old boy. Quite racist of course though!' Being racist is not a minor character foible! Why does this long standing friendship apparently mean more to them than sticking up for their own grandchildren??

I don't think it is dementia, as in other ways he seems to manage his affairs pretty much as usual, although he is starting to find dealing with organisations through call centres and things like technology more tricky. We assist him with that. But certainly he thinks highly of himself and is happy to bash other people over the head with his opinions. The trouble is perhaps that he is quite sociable (which he prides himself on) and his friends are mostly elderly white men, fairly well off, similar to himself, so he lives in a bit of bubble.

He's not a bad person and not really blatantly racist, but considering the composition of his family I find him coming out with this stuff really inappropriate. Well nobody should be racist of course, but in his case, it should surely be obvious to him not to go down this road.

I can't discuss it with my daughters, they would be very distressed. I discussed it with DH, he thinks I should tell him it make me sad, not angry. In reality I am angry as well though!

Has anyone else had a similar thing in their family and how on earth do I deal with this?

I have found my dad comes out with some very strange remarks now he is in his 80s , like sexist comments about a women even though he has never been like this. Sadly I think his aging and his mind is not what it was, he is forgetful now too. I don’t take offence, I just change the topic quickly and move on because I’m not sure he is in his right mind at all nowadays.

I've found, being married to someone of a culture different to my own, and knowing family members of that generation - they don't understand that what they're saying IS racist / homophobic / sexist / etc

My late grab thought nothing of using 'the P word' (this one in particular makes my teeth Itch), or 'queer' to describe someone - they're literally just the words they used and don't see how they're offensive

That isn't to excuse what he's saying

Well should I email him do you think? Emphasising the 'sad' angle? I can't just let it slide, he will end up spoiling his relationship with his grandkids, I can't just let it slide. It's wrong.

The family has gone through a lot over recent years and I've really tried hard to keep it together, I don't deserve this and the kids definitely don't. I really thought better of him than this, every time it happens I love him a bit less.

Actions speak louder than words.

I wouldn't address it with him at his age.

Would you say the same if your kids were mixed race though?

He functions OK in the world, is not frail. So I don't see why his age should give him a free pass.

I found this with my parents. They weren’t racist in the 80s when it would have been easier to be. They had good friends from other ethnicities, thought people who didn’t were weird. Were open and tolerant.

Late 70s they started sharing views that I found completely out of character. Small island type things - too many people, too much change, started voting conservative after being massively anti-Tory. I do not know where it came from. Maybe just a fear of change with age? Though they had talk radio on all the time which is a bit of a poison drip.

I got them to agree to not say any of it in front of us/the kids. But I’m sure they carried on in private.

This perplexes me too. My mum is saying this sort of stuff in her late 80’s and addicted to GB news.

m never like this before,

worries me a actually (particularly as she is non white).

I’ve seen this with older people 80s plus who start swearing and saying out there comments even though they never did. It’s like the filter just goes. I think an email might be too formal. He’s your dad so only you can decide how you want to respond. Do you not think that maybe you just call him out on it each time he says something.

Yes I think you're right, I should say something each time, not bottle it up until I'm furious

I’m mixed raced. Throughout my lifetime I’ve heard racism from the white side of my family. My existence was their get out card. How could they be racist?!

the generational excuse is just that. An excuse because I’ve never heard these things from the other side.

I have nothing to do with them now just as I have nothing to do with any other racists.

@Opine that's so sad, I'm very sorry that happened in your family.

Did things used to be better in your family when you were younger? Did you feel loved or not that close? Do you think old age is any kind of excuse in the case of your family members? Sorry, don't answer if its too painful (it must be).

But thanks so much for sharing your experience, you've made me realise I should take more action. Keep telling them, drop down the visits if its not taken on board. That might penetrate.

@dollygrip yes I was very loved but as I grew older I just couldn’t tolerate it anymore. It’s one thing to face racism in the outside world but another amongst those you share DNA with.

Old age is only an excuse for white people it seems because I’ve never heard old black, Asian etc people speak that way despite them having a much harder time than we ever could. How lovely it must be to be racist and everyone lets you because you are old.

Plenty of older people manage not to be racist or homophobic.

I am dragging this up again, (saves retyping!) because the situation is ongoing. I have not seriously challenged my father about it (although I try and fit in a disapproving reply after every such remark). Cowardice on my part I know. For various reasons, going NC is not an option.

And now Christmas is around the corner, they have expressed that they really want to see the grandchildren (and great-grandchildren, who are actually children, they're my DN's kids). Me and DP are organising it, as it involves a longer drive that my father no longer feels comfortable with really, fair enough. Another DN is visiting him this week, and the situation is delicate. I cannot have him coming out with this crap in front of them and especially in front of the children.

It is all low-level stuff, not extreme racism. But still, it's racism, which he doesn't seem to understand. Other people they know might be racist, but they are not (apparently). The homophobia was fairly blatant last time though. Criticizing the presenter of a BBC food programme (not sure who it was) because he spoke in a way that was 'very ducky, it was just too much, why do some gay men have to speak that way?'. Wonder what his gay hairdresser would think. Our neighbours are gay too. Because of that I feel like I can't ask the DPs to visit here in case he says something in front of the neighbours, or am I overreacting?

If you'd have asked me a few years ago would my parents have come out with this crap I would have said no. I don't want my DN's kids hearing this stuff at Christmas.

It is all very difficult and I feel it is all on me to do the decent thing, because I can't ask DDs and DNs, they would be very upset. DNs especially have had a hard time the last few years and dealt with the death of their father/my brother. And I have no siblings now, so just down to me. I find it all upsetting, and he's fairly oblivious, but sometimes I think is he doing it just to get a rise out of me?

Any suggestions for words I can use to get through to him?

This has dropped down to page 2, so I am giving it a boost.

Anyone? I was hoping for words of wisdom from somebody as I think I need to speak to DF about it tomorrow. Very nervous, but I don't think I am the one being unreasonable, or is it possible that I'm over thinking it?

Perhaps it's a bit of a niche situation, but I wouldn't have thought it would be that uncommon. Perhaps I should have posted in a different section. Would really appreciate any help with this.

What were your thoughts when he asked that question about some gay men ? What does ‘ducky’ mean ?

Well my thoughts were that he was being intolerant... I think he means what I would say 'camp'. Like the way Alan Carr talks for example, or Julian Clary. Dad is old and uses old fashioned terminology.

Nothing wrong with speaking in a camp way if that is part of your identity of course.

My old man is probably similar and generally it's not something I let bother me but I have a best friend who is gay and my dad can be homophobic infront of him despite this. And it makes me feel really angry with him. He just doesn't think it applies to my friend as he is I guess 'one of us' as if it's OK for him but not the other, more 'camp' gay guys.

With issues like homophobia and racism I feel I've taken 4 steps forwards and 5 back again and again with him over the years. There are times I think he's changed and then he'll say something completely out of line and I'm somehow shocked.

I don't think he's a hateful person. I think its human nature to have prejudices about many a different thing tbh. Even those of us who claim not to,probably do, we just don't realise it. Species-ism for example (when we see dogs as pets but cows, pigs and sheep as food. Allowing us to use and abuse them for everything they have).

No one is perfect.
The issue is, he's bringing these prejudices up in a way where he could hurt your kids.
I am wary of having my friend round my dad but, ultimately he knows what he is like and as an adult, can make his own decision.
But kids...rely on you to safeguard them.
Also...you need to consider the role models you have in their lives.

I don't know how worthwhile a serious chat woth him is tbh. It's not like they don't know what they are saying is wrong. I think if you do decide to have him in your kids life though then every time he does or says such things, you need to make clear to them he is in the wrong. Either by telling him he's being really inappropriate or, by rolling your eyes and going 'crazy grandady is being naughty again so we're going to leave'. And taking the kids out, every time. He needs to know if he acts like a jerk, there won't be an audience staying to hear about it.

So you think he was expressing disapproval rather than actually asking why ?

Thank you @Keyryder !@Keyryder ! I really need to woman up about it. Just tell him calmly, emphasising how it could affect the kids. If he kicks off, freeze him out a bit.

I don't know what he thinks he's achieving coming out with this stuff to me after all these years. I don't know whether it's a sign he's starting to 'lose his marbles' (seems competent in most ways though), or is this who he's really been all along? Both scenarios are very upsetting.

Hi OP

I’m sorry you’re experiencing this. It’s horrible and has put you in a really difficult situation. You’re not overreacting. Your DF is completely wrong. I’m sick of hearing excuses about ‘oh it’s their age’. Racism is racism.

it sounds like you’d like to maintain a relationship with him and it’s great that you want to approach this to help keep your family feeling safe and comfortable. My only suggestion is to be direct and honest about it whilst focusing on the behaviour rather than criticising him as a person. that it’s not OK to say these things and the impact it would have on his family if they heard this. If he’s kind and caring in other ways, appeal to that part of his nature. You say that he makes comments about his friends being racist and it sounds like he doesn’t like that - you could try to help him understand that his comments and behaviour are no different (it’s about viewing someone as different/less than and it comes down to the same thing). If there’s a particular way that he likes to receive information, share that (eg videos, books etc). I’ve made recommendations to my DM via film and documentaries to watch (i didn’t have the emotional capacity to have a conversation about it) which she did and she’s now a bit better. He may not be able to hear it but as a mother of mixed children i’d say it’s your duty to stick up for them. People of colour often don’t have the emotional capacity or feel safe enough to have these conversations as it’s deeply distressing so see it as your way of supporting people who aren’t in the room.

For context, I’m mixed race and grew up in the white side of my family who unfortunately are racist. Similar comments to what you’ve described here - racism is racism and what you’ve described shows the way your family view those of difference, other ethnicities, sexualities etc. it’s not OK.

I went NC with my extended family for this reason, it was deeply distressing to hear this stuff. I called them out multiple times and got the usual ‘we can’t be racist we’re related to you’. Nothing changed and it was horrible. Some of the comments here also show how easy it is for white people to minimise this stuff and let things slide. How would you feel if someone you knew made comments like that in front of someone who was different? I hope you’d stick up for them. It should be no different when we’re not in the room so to speak. The excuse of ‘oh it’s just their age’ doesn’t change the pain, shame and humiliation one feels being singled out for something they can’t change (in my case, my skin colour). Why should their comfort trump others’ deep pain?

IMO Your children have a right to know and to make up their own mind about it if they are adults as you’ve described. As a mixed race person I can tell you that the experience has caused a lot of distress, knowing my family view others of the same ethnicity like this and for my own safety and peace of mind going NC was the best thing for me.

there’s no right or wrong. Best of luck and i hope the conversation can go well.

Yes he was, he said it was 'creepy'.

@Duffellsack thanks so much for your thoughts and advice.

You 100% need to say something to him before he sees the family at Christmas. He needs to know he is going to cause upset and potentially ruin the bond between himself and his grandchildren.

He might not realise he is doing it (doesn’t make it any better) but hopefully he will stop or be able to control what he says around his grandchildren.

I think you should ask him why he thinks it’s creepy for someone to talk camp. And why he thinks an Asian person would mess you around in a house sale.