Is it me, or does this make it hopeless?

[Blindedbyit]

My boyfriend cheated on me some time ago. We split up for a long time, during which he was pretty clearly extremely regretful. He worked his way back and I gave him another chance.

The relationship is good, he did everything I asked, I don't think he'd ever cheat again, the trust is rebuilt. If anything, he is a much better boyfriend than he was before.

The problem is that after three years, where we've read every book, talked heaps, supposedly learned and grown, I still don't think he gets it.

As in, I think he doesn't truly hold himself accountable.

We had a long and unrelated discussion a few days ago because he'd been reading up online after something I'd said and he thinks he has an "external locus of control". Meaning he has a complete blindness to believing he has power over his life.

This is evident in every aspect of his life. He thinks life just happens to you. He doesn't think you can control it by doing or not doing things.

As an example, he might get an illness and instead of being proactive about getting treatment, he will just sort of feel sorry for himself.

This is kind of fine generally, as we have complimentary skills so I encourage him to do things he needs to do and he helps me in other ways.

However! He genuinely believes his cheating was just a cosmic accident. That if his office had hired a male colleague instead of a female one, that he'd never have done what he did.

This makes me pretty raging.

There was a long series of decisions that led to him cheating. A very long and unpleasant set of really shit and wrong decisions that he made. And I feel like although he freely admits that, and wouldn't make the same choices now, he still ultimately believes it would never have happened if that particular person wasn't put in his path.

I feel like this is him not really getting 101 on cheating, because you need to understand its yourself that chose it.

Is it me?

I'm guessing I'm a lot older than you and my take is definitely "blunt old broad".

You don't have to be in a relationship at all.
And, there are literally millions of men in the English speaking world.

It's not like it was two hundred years ago (no tarmac, no trains, cars or bicycles) when it was a complete PITA to get to the next village but one, AND women had relatively little power and independence, and so, well, "pick the least worst bloke and lump it" was a reasonably pragmatic strategy.

#CharlotteLucasAndMrCollins

I'm sure your chap is not all bad, even Fred West could be perfectly pleasant on occasion. But it just doesn't sound like this is a viable long term relationship because your fundamental values and outlooks differ too much.

Throw this one back. You only get the one life. Don't waste it.

I personally firmly believe that nobody ever cheats without understanding what they’re doing and making a specific decision to go ahead with cheating on their partner

I completely agree with you. I think maybe on some level he's holding back from admitting that because it means admitting he wanted to do it, which he probably thinks would hurt me. It's counterproductive because I already know he wanted to do it :( obviously I know that.

I think if he’s eg saying “this would never have happened if I had been paired with a male colleague, if I am ever in a similar situation again I’m going to make sure that I insist the company puts me with a male colleague, otherwise I will have to find another job rather than put my relationship at risk again” then that’s him taking some responsibility at least?

Well this he does do. After the cheating he completely changed his behavior. He has a photo of us together on his WhatsApp so anyone he speaks to knows he's attached. He would never agree to go away from me for months again, even if he lost his job, and he'd certainly never hang out with or speak to another woman I an over friendly way. He's definitely learned from it!

Nice word salad he gave you to lift all responsibility and blame it all on that "evil temptress" of a co-worker who forced him into doing something he clearly did not wanted. Women are terrible creatures.

Are you really drinking this Kool aid? It shocks me.

How does what he said put blame on her?

I don't think he blames her, he blames circumstances. She didn't know so why would I blame her?

However, once she did know he was attached, she still persued him, so I don't think she was very bothered anyway.

@Blindedbyit He might have learned something from it. He hasn't actually developed the maturity to take any responsibility for it though, has he? His 'external locus of control' is conveniently doing that for him.

Do you really want to be with someone who needs to learn this most basic thing?

He's immature and won't change.

However, once she did know he was attached, she still persued him, so I don't think she was very bothered anyway.

Well, why should she have been? He gave her no reason to think that him being in a relationship made any difference to HIM. They spent loads of time together and he never mentioned he was in a relationship, never talked about you, never let it stop him. 🤔I think it's bizarre that they were living together in this flat and he never mentioned you even in passing. I mean, that takes effort to avoid talking a big part of his life, doesn't it?

It is a very basic thing until? I'm glad you get it because he doesn't understand.

What he says is that he needs to know in his own mind that he'd never do anything like it again, so he's set up rules that make sure he isn't in bad positions again. To him that's sensible logic.

To me, what would be much better is if he knew he could be in a bad position and make different choices.

The fact she wasn't his type in any way makes it even worse.

So he actively chose to have sex with a woman he didn't even fancy !

Honestly, he sounds like a bull shitter to me.

How can you think the trust is rebuilt when he still doesn't get it?

@category12

Yes! It does take effort. We texted all day and video chatted every night so it's obviously a deliberate choice not to mention me. Almost an effort to conceal me.

Obviously after something like this you believe the worst. You don't trust anything someone says, but I honestly dont believe he was angling to shag her.

I know him very well. She's not AT ALL his type. There's plenty of gorgeous, clever women at his work and I know she falls into a category he'd usually find actively unattractive.

I think what was going on is that she was extremely forward, made it crystal clear she was besotted in a way most people would be far too embarrassed to do and I think it made him feel great.

Sorry OP, I was being a tad sarcastic. So if the cheating was not her fault, nor his fault… it was “the universe fault”?

Bloody universe. Did the universe also tapped his mouth and stoped him from telling her “nice meeting you but I have a girlfriend”?

I’m not sure I could live with someone who believed he had no capacity for independent agency, but thinks he’s a helpless little mote in a universe throwing circumstances containing built-in irresistible temptations his way.

It’s a bit like someone who, rather than confronting his shoplifting problem , simply refuses to ever go into a shop of any kind ever again for the rest of his life, because it’s not him, it’s all those shelves of nice things, beckoning him…

I mean, is he ever going to be able to be around any woman other than you, his daughter/ mother/ sisters, ever again?

I don’t blame you for feeling this is unresolved, OP. You haven’t forgiven him because he hasn’t accepted full responsibility. It’s kind of ‘big kids made me do it’. Marriage counselling ?

Thanks guys. Good validation that I've got reason for this to niggle me a lot.

See I read this as putting obstacles in the way to make it harder for himself.

I mean, I put chocolate in the freezer to reduce my tendency to eat it all. It doesn't mean I wouldn't eat any I found in my hand.

How would he feel if you were trapped in a lift with someone? Would your bonding experience and shared trauma make it inevitable you'd have sex?

If he's caught in a lift, will he?

Are you supposed to watch over him and engineer all distractions out of his way?

It's fundamentally not going to work as a life approach. It's made him vulnerable to coercion in a previous relationship (though how can you trust his perspective?) and it's now buggered up his current relationship.

He needs to shape up and take responsibility. He has agency. He needs to behave like it. Perhaps investigate whether he has a trauma response going on- I can be very passive in situations where I'm under threat. He doesn't seem to have felt threatened in the way a woman being hit on might, though.

He later said he felt he was asserting his independence. Autonomy to have a female friend. Due to a previous spouse who controlled his every move.

Beware the man with the controlling/crazy/abusive/insert word of their behaviour ex.

How does what he said put blame on her? I don't think he blames her, he blames circumstances.

He's giving you this circumstances bullshit because he doesn't want to take the blame himself. He does understand, he understands fine, he just refuses to take responsibility. He's very believable, isn't he?

Your boyfriend has Repeat Offender written all over him

So he can behave appropriately so long as the universe doesn't put too much temptation in his way. Maybe criminals can use this when they're in court. "It's not my fault, the crime was just too tempting!".

Yep, I think he's going to do it again, sorry to say it. Might not be immediate but like hell would I ever trust him again.

It was for an ego boost, he doesn't take any responsibility, some crap about how he kept you secret as he is a private person rather than admitting he liked the flirtation and flattery. He has put in place 'rules' (like what?) to stop it happening again which are completely meaningless if he believes it was inevitable anyway. He's told you he can't help shagging another woman if she is keen and they're in close quarters.

You say she didn't care he had a partner anyway. Well, by that stage he had suggested by omission that it wasn't important anyway so she isn't the home wrecker here.

Look, if you're happy for this to happen again crack on but I think you can do better.

I get the impression he is quite brittle but thinks he's above other people.

He doesn't hold power over his life. That sounds like: I'm going to do as I please and you can't make me take responsibility of any wrong doing etc.
Is it a win win innit?

This is all complete rubbish OP, he's feeding you utter garbage. Of course he made a choice, he knew what he was doing alright, but he has conveniently blamed circumstances 'outside his control.'
Personally l couldn't be with someone who felt he had no agency over his actions, and was just a puppet to some higher cosmic power! He's imposed a few sanctions to allegedly stop this happening again but l wouldn't bank on it if the universe decided to jerk his strings again! Seriously you can do much better than this bullshitter.

Well he's not wrong is he? Had the "cosmic forces" put him in the flat with a man or a sexually unavailable woman, he wouldn't have cheated!

TBH your relationship sounds a bit angst-y with all the reading and soul searching and quest for the eternal truth.

Cosmic forces aside, he had the chance to shag an attractive woman who was coming on to him. Alcohol was involved. They were locked down together. Perfect storm really.

In the end, OP, if you were married with kids, I'd say to forgive and move on. But he's just a boyfriend and it sounds like you're still constantly rehashing the affair in your head and questioning his motives so I don't think you've genuinely forgiven him or moved on even though it was 3 years ago. So I would end it. Once the glass is shattered, it can never be truly fixed to how it was before.

Fundamentally you're incompatible because you have radically different approaches to life.

He sounds slippery. It's like Boris Johnson, things just 'happen'.

If he wants to do it again the justification has already been given. If he's done it on other occasions the justification has already been given. It's a catch all get out clause.

Also all the talk about the woman being unattractive is both misogynistic and a complete red herring. Clearly he was attracted.

I mean this kindly OP, but I think you need to make peace with him never saying the ‘right’ words that you want to hear, or leave him. This was three years ago. You say he feels guilty, he’s shown remorse, he’s changed his behaviour and he’s a better partner than he was before. But you still want him to jump through this final hoop to show he’s taken responsibility. What happens if he never says it was his choice? And what happens if he does say it? Will you forgive him and move forward? It sounds like you’re still very hurt and still very much reliving what happened. You need to set yourself free from this either by accepting that he may never say the things that you want to hear, or break up with him and move on.

So it was

1. the fault of the cosmos
2. the fault of his employer for employing a female co-worker and
3. the fault of the not-his-type female coworker

that his penis accidentally slipped into her vagina. Have I got that right?

And what happens when the universe, his employer and another not his type female all conspire to get his penis into another woman? Whose fault is it then?

If it was outwith his control and part of the cosmic order that he slept with someone else, then next time it won’t be his fault either, it will be the universe again.

That dastardly cosmos ruining relationships since time began.

What bullshittery is this? “Cosmic incident” my arse! I am entirely with you op. Whilst obviously the circumstances were very unusual, that in no way removes the fact that, he is a fully functioning grown man, with agency, and he made a choice. In fact, he made a series of choices……to not mention you, to spend time with her, to open the wine, to kiss her, to get his kit off….No one, including the “cosmos” had a gun to his head and if I was you, I would need him to own that. His boundaries were off, he chose to betray you and he needs to work out why. Validation, selfishness, entitlement are the usual ones, but he cannot blame anyone but himself for that. And until he acknowledges that, the risk will always be there that in the right “circumstances” he would do it again. Has he had therapy?