Do you think abusers know they are being abusive?

[DeeDossed]

I was in a 'relationship' with a man who was in his 40s when I was 16. I have since learnt that I was probably groomed and he would use abusive 'tactics' like gaslighting. I'd never heard of the word at the time, this was 20 years ago, but he would basically lie about small things to make me think I was going mad.
Now, this is quite a manipulative and calculating thing to do, but I can't believe he was clever enough to premeditate this. He was thick. How do abusers think, right it must be about time to start dripping in the lies today then next week I'll ramp it up a bit more? Who teaches them how this is done?

It wasn't just gaslighting, he would threaten to kill himself, threaten to tell everyone about us, isolate me from my friends, rewrite my own beliefs, and so on.
I'm not sure what my question is, I think im just trying to work out how this idiot managed to learn all these techniques before I'd ever even heard of them? Is there a secret school for abusive pricks or something?

Nature vs nurture, he was nurtured that way through abusive childhood usually.
yes they do know they are doing it on purpose, and yes they will do anything to look like the ‘good guy’
your a possession to them, that they can do what they want with especially when there’s a power imbalance like the age gap you just described. Sorry this happened to you

Would you be able to behave that way, without knowing you were doing it?

They know. You don't have to be smart. You just have to be nasty.

They know, and they enjoy it.

They tell themselves a story - that they are a good person, just defending themselves against you, etc in order so they can abuse without accountability. if you take abusers on a huge genocidal scale, like Hitler for example, they are doing the same thing - building a narrative that they are on the side of decency and good.

Often they have extreme anxiety and need to control everything and everyone to cope with it, or a lack of self-worth that needs constant feeding, so they can't see past their self-preservation and think others are out to get them. They see themselves as victims and think their actual victims are driving them to it.

Yes they know especially as they can control themselves around others

They believe they are right.

This is such an interesting question.
I think some just enjoy inflicting misery and consciously do so, while others are entirely convinced they are driven to it and it's justified, so it's not abuse. There will be some who are a mixture of both.
I think lots of them lack the empathy to give it any depth of thought at all.

I think some do and some don’t.

My exh had a mental health crisis that crept up on us all. He became controlling and paranoid then dangerous and attacked me. I, genuinely, think he didn’t see the controlling part as abusive at the time.

He genuinely thought I was cheating on him. So he would sulk and snoop. He would behave in ways that made me not want to go out because of the consequences of doing so. He saw it as he was reacting to my poor behaviour. If I was at work, I must be cheating. If I was home 15 mins later it’s because I stayed behind to shag someone. He believed that sulking would make sure I didn’t stay behind and shag someone. He hunted all over for proof of an affair. He followed me, parked outside work, went through my phone, linked my phone to our laptop so he could read my messages and see my location at all times. He never found any evidence because I wasn’t cheating.

He saw that I was the one wrong. I was the one abusing and gaslighting him he was just reacting to it.

He continued this story for about 4 years after we split. He was the victim. Then covid hit and that became the focus of his paranoia.

I think some know they are trying to modify and control behaviour of their partner, but they don’t see it as abuse. They are convinced they have the right to have life lived how they want and genuinely think their partner should only be how they find acceptable. So anything they do is acceptable

Some definitely know

Even animals with much lower intelligence than humans can have a level of cunning. These abusers have probably learned and copied their manipulative behaviour from their upbringing.

Unpopular opinion but no i don't think they do

I think they do. As they can turn it on and off with certain people more likely vulnerable ones who’s can’t stick up for them selves. I may be wrong

Humans are complex, abuse perhaps even more complex. I don't think simplistic positions on this topic are helpful.

It’s either learnt or it’s justified or it’s your fault etc. their thinking is warped so it’s not like you or I doing it. It doesn’t really work that way. it hasn’t been thought through in a logical way and is often emotionally driven even when goal oriented.

In general I am not an abusive person. But when I was in an abusive relationship I became abusive to him also. Logically I know I could have made the choice to behave differently. Reducing myself to his level was not my finest moment. But for me it was the total loss of control over the situation and needing to find a way to have control over things. Hence I belive this is also why they do it in the first place.

They can't just have a "normal" relationship where you just see how things pan out. They need to know exactly step by step how things are going to go. If you then deviate from whatever is set out in their mind, they feel an immense loss of control and then have to regain it. Except that even if things are on the surface, going their way. They then change the plan or the expectations which is why you can never "win". Because they don't actually know what they want either.

They will always justify it somehow in their own minds. It's complex and deep rooted.

Oh I think they know very well what they're doing.
Anyone who is around them will notice that they behave themselves with people more powerful than they are, or are likely to punch their face.

Maybe he was smarter than I thought then. I realise suicide threats could be an emotional outburst but gaslighting is something else. It's a long term investment!

I get annoyed that everyone is misusing the word nowadays, it doesn't just mean lying, it's a calculated attempt to make you question your own sanity. I'm amazed that this man learnt the art of gaslighting (probably before the film was even invented).

Thanks for all your responses. Sorry you know so much about this.

Male or female -

They may never have known anything else, having observed it in childhood from previous generations' dysfunctional relationships and behaviour, or suffered it themselves as child victims. The way their personalities formed was damaged from the start.

They may be reacting to things that happened to them - previous partners cheating, parent abandoning the family, and live with suspicion and dread that it's going to happen again. Reacting to real trauma, so looking for evidence.

They may have become mentally ill, like a pp described, with paranoia driving suspicions.

They may have a bit missing, like Fred West, had had head injuries as a boy as well as a horrific background.

They may be vile manipulative psychos who like nothing better than inflicting misery on others by controlling and gaslighting etc, think it's funny, enjoy the power.

I think there are many types of people who behave abusively. Some are sadistic and do it knowingly with enjoyment, others perhaps for their own gain. Others might know on one level but justify it to themselves with a messed up belief system, e.g. "women need to be put in their place", "children should obey their parents", "I'm doing this for their own good". Some had such a fucked up childhood that it's all they knew, or they convinced themselves that it was right because that's what their parents did - to change that view would mean realising a parent who they idolised was actually abusive. I think it's an immensely complex question with no straightforward answer.

I don’t think they know they’re doing it because that would mean they knew they were doing wrong, I think they justify it to themselves as normal, they probably think everyone else is doing the same things that they are.

You might find this book interesting
why does he do that

No, I don't think all abusers do, because I don't think they'd all class their behaviour as abusive eg a parent who thinks it's reasonable to hit a child for bad behaviour might genuinely think "it's not abuse, it's discipline". I imagine it's the same for some controlling abusers, along the lines of "it's not abuse, this is an acceptable level of control for me to have over our finances because I earn the money and therefore can decide how it's spent".

Gaslighters must know though, because otherwise they aren't gaslighting you, they are just wrong. I mean, they must know what they're saying isn't true, otherwise they aren't lying as such, they're just incorrect. And that would obviously not be on a consistent enough level to make you start to question yourself.

Some people’s reality is shaped outside of facts but from perception. All of our memories are fallible to some extent, but for some people it’s fully disordered. For example, if they felt hurt by you not being able to attend their event, they might interpret that as you hate them. They then remember the interaction in a very different way, possibly even that you said you weren’t coming because you hate them. There’s nothing you can say to change their mind. You might say, I couldn’t come because I couldn’t get a babysitter and they’ll completely deny that you said this. This becomes a form of gas lighting.

He most likely learnt it in the cradle; abusers begat abusers.

So many possibilities :

Learned behaviour,
Trauma response,
Suffering mental health issues themselves,
Addiction issues affecting their judgment,
Re-labbeing their abusive tendencies as being street smart and moulding others to do their bidding,
Insecurity requiring control as they feel out of control.

Their knowledge and understanding of their actions will vary.