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Original poster

Do you think abusers know they are being abusive?

62 replies

DeeDossed · 05/08/2023 17:39

I was in a 'relationship' with a man who was in his 40s when I was 16. I have since learnt that I was probably groomed and he would use abusive 'tactics' like gaslighting. I'd never heard of the word at the time, this was 20 years ago, but he would basically lie about small things to make me think I was going mad.
Now, this is quite a manipulative and calculating thing to do, but I can't believe he was clever enough to premeditate this. He was thick. How do abusers think, right it must be about time to start dripping in the lies today then next week I'll ramp it up a bit more? Who teaches them how this is done?

It wasn't just gaslighting, he would threaten to kill himself, threaten to tell everyone about us, isolate me from my friends, rewrite my own beliefs, and so on.
I'm not sure what my question is, I think im just trying to work out how this idiot managed to learn all these techniques before I'd ever even heard of them? Is there a secret school for abusive pricks or something?

OP posts:
Holscgnmusch · 05/08/2023 20:30

I think people probably vary. Some are intentional, some are manipulative by instinct and learned behaviour.

I’m sure many just stumble upon these things and learn if I do x, you get y result from someone.

I think most people who are abusive are acting to serve some need of their own. The effect on the other person is incidental. (Obviously there will also be cases where people are just genuinely sadistic and enjoy hurting others.) Where that is an emotional need, I think the manipulative behaviour is more likely to be instinctive. Where it’s something material – money, sex, whatever – I think the abusive behaviour is more likely to be preconceived and reflected upon.

HashBrownandBeans · 05/08/2023 20:40

I think they normally think they are the best human being in the world and everyone else is the problem. And it’s usually genetic or learnt from an abusive parent.

MBailey99 · 05/08/2023 20:45

Of course they do. The vast majority of abusers choose to abuse behind closed doors. An abuser is unlikely to hit their child when I school grounds, or call their partner a cunt in front of their parents. Why? Because they know it is wrong, therefore they do it in private, and without witnesses.

Original poster
DeeDossed · 05/08/2023 20:49

How do they choose people to abuse?

Asking because I wonder why I was selected when there were other options. There were loads of girls going to his flat, was I just the softest one?

OP posts:
Original poster
DeeDossed · 05/08/2023 20:53

Sorry I should have said emotional/psychological abuse in the title. I can understand that physical abuse can be impulsive and has always been known as wrong. It's more the question of psychological tactics that are premeditated like love bombing, gaslighting, etc

OP posts:
Pearlhavingherfifth · 05/08/2023 21:16

@Caprisunny I dont believe what i reading...I am in the exact same situation with my now exhusband.
He moved out and i filed divorce.He still believes i was cheating on Him,was gathering things against me to prove that,but never found anything as i not was cheating on Him.Dont know,what to do with him.Asked him to go and see doctors,but he thinks is normal and i am the bad....so we separated,and hope he will stop this one day.

JibbaJab · 05/08/2023 21:54

Yes I believe some do know deep down they are abusive but they can't admit that so they do everything and anything they can to avoid being at fault or the one who is.

I know in my case mine thought they were right and justified in everything they do, they know best and everyone elses opinion is invalid. They also feel the world is against them, they are always a victim in some way, everyone else is abusive. Whereas the reality was everyone was actually caring and getting on with life, while they were the ones being abusive.

They prey on those that are everything they don't possess, those with empathy and understanding and less likely to push back, be duped and bend to their every whim.

CatsSnore · 05/08/2023 22:16

Lundy Bancroft wrote something (not exact) that each relationship the abuser falls in love with the idea of love and being a good partner. He is caught up in the first romantic rush, all those lovely feel good chemicals are zipping around his brain, and it's very easy to think that this new love is the right love. It was their exes fault for not treating them the way their new love does. They also fall in love with the way that they now are, the way they feel and everything is perfect. Love bombing isn't always so clear cut as an abusive tactic, the person is falling in love with the idea of themselves being a good person/partner and the new life they envisage in their head.

Then reality sets in. My view is that they have cognitive dissonance around how they behave when they are triggered (not victim blaming in the slightest don't take it wrong) and can't accept that they aren't the person that they want to be as well as the loss of control around their partner.

I think with relation to gaslighting, they gaslight themselves to the truth they want it to be. You'll never be able to break this lie to themselves as they will not be able to see it. They've crafted a version of themselves in a role they are playing and they cannot see that they're wrong. That would shatter their illusion of themselves.

Raisinnola · 05/08/2023 22:20

CatsSnore · 05/08/2023 22:16

Lundy Bancroft wrote something (not exact) that each relationship the abuser falls in love with the idea of love and being a good partner. He is caught up in the first romantic rush, all those lovely feel good chemicals are zipping around his brain, and it's very easy to think that this new love is the right love. It was their exes fault for not treating them the way their new love does. They also fall in love with the way that they now are, the way they feel and everything is perfect. Love bombing isn't always so clear cut as an abusive tactic, the person is falling in love with the idea of themselves being a good person/partner and the new life they envisage in their head.

Then reality sets in. My view is that they have cognitive dissonance around how they behave when they are triggered (not victim blaming in the slightest don't take it wrong) and can't accept that they aren't the person that they want to be as well as the loss of control around their partner.

I think with relation to gaslighting, they gaslight themselves to the truth they want it to be. You'll never be able to break this lie to themselves as they will not be able to see it. They've crafted a version of themselves in a role they are playing and they cannot see that they're wrong. That would shatter their illusion of themselves.

100% agree, couldn’t have put it better

caringcarer · 05/08/2023 22:31

Yes, I think some of them actively enjoy scaring their victims shirtless.

coldseedlessgrapes · 05/08/2023 22:40

These things are very complicated and while it's clearly valid for people to talk about difficult and negative relationships, it isn't always helpful to talk about "abusive people" as if they are in any way a category of similar people, who think alike.
Like many things "abuse" has become a broad term to mean many different things to different people.
Smacking a child's bottom in the Uk is deemed abusive. It wouldn't be in the majority of the rest of the world.
Feeding kids separate processed beige food, rather than what adults eat is seen as a normal thing in the uk, a lot of the world would deem it an awful thing to do.

CapEBarra · 05/08/2023 22:52

These people are the stars in the movie of their lives and everyone else is just a bit player - their thoughts, feelings, priorities, and needs, are incidental. It breaks down when you, a character with a speaking part, engages in actions (real or perceived or imagined) that threaten their starring role. They then gaslight/threaten/abuse/stalk in an attempt to get to you back into line as a supporting character. Sometimes it works, or works for a while, or doesn’t.

Twilight7777 · 05/08/2023 22:54

Not only do they know, they actively seek out vulnerable people.

Polik · 05/08/2023 22:57

In terms of the emotional abuse of children - only a small proportion of the parents/adults I have come across know their behaviour is emotionally abusive. They may know they aren't on their parenting A-Game (with various justifications), but it quite often needs to be explained to them that/why the behaviour is emotionally abusive. Similar is true for neglect.

CatsSnore · 05/08/2023 22:58

Twilight7777 · 05/08/2023 22:54

Not only do they know, they actively seek out vulnerable people.

Some might, like men who marry older rich women for visas.

A lot of men who abuse end up with confident sparkly outgoing women because of how good these women make them feel in the beginning. Then feel threatened by it once they're in the relationship and completely disseminate thee women's self belief and confidence.

RantyAnty · 05/08/2023 23:08

They know. They just use mind tricks to make it ok for them.

Men have dark triad traits and some worse than others.

Macaroni46 · 05/08/2023 23:18

"A lot of men who abuse end up with confident sparkly outgoing women because of how good these women make them feel in the beginning. Then feel threatened by it once they're in the relationship and completely disseminate thee women's self belief and confidence."*
*
Agree with this.
They pick a confident woman.
Slowly destroy her confidence.
Then turn round and accuse her of not being the confident woman they fell in love with.
Woman tries to be confident like she used to be.
Abusive man takes umbrage and knocks her back.
And so the cycle continues ... until she leaves.

This is what happened in my case. My exH couldn't believe I'd left and couldn't understand why. How could I do that to him? Didn't I know how much he loved me? Blah blah blah!

Luucylu · 05/08/2023 23:24

ManchesterGirl2 · 05/08/2023 19:33

I think there are many types of people who behave abusively. Some are sadistic and do it knowingly with enjoyment, others perhaps for their own gain. Others might know on one level but justify it to themselves with a messed up belief system, e.g. "women need to be put in their place", "children should obey their parents", "I'm doing this for their own good". Some had such a fucked up childhood that it's all they knew, or they convinced themselves that it was right because that's what their parents did - to change that view would mean realising a parent who they idolised was actually abusive. I think it's an immensely complex question with no straightforward answer.

I think this is a really good answer!

EarringsandLipstick · 06/08/2023 07:43

AhNow123 · 05/08/2023 18:37

They tell themselves a story - that they are a good person, just defending themselves against you, etc in order so they can abuse without accountability. if you take abusers on a huge genocidal scale, like Hitler for example, they are doing the same thing - building a narrative that they are on the side of decency and good.

Exactly.

They 'know' but build a narrative that they believe, that they are a good person & are taking this action to protect themselves or some other 'good'. You are the problem in their narrative.

EarringsandLipstick · 06/08/2023 07:52

Macaroni46 · 05/08/2023 23:18

"A lot of men who abuse end up with confident sparkly outgoing women because of how good these women make them feel in the beginning. Then feel threatened by it once they're in the relationship and completely disseminate thee women's self belief and confidence."*
*
Agree with this.
They pick a confident woman.
Slowly destroy her confidence.
Then turn round and accuse her of not being the confident woman they fell in love with.
Woman tries to be confident like she used to be.
Abusive man takes umbrage and knocks her back.
And so the cycle continues ... until she leaves.

This is what happened in my case. My exH couldn't believe I'd left and couldn't understand why. How could I do that to him? Didn't I know how much he loved me? Blah blah blah!

Agree.

And they will keep going until they have really reduced their partner to a shell of herself.

That's what my exH did. At a certain point, I knew I couldn't take it any more. I'd just had my 3rd DC. I confronted him & said either he genuinely faced up to the issues & went to counselling or it was over. That I'd had enough. [I didn't realise it was abuse at that point, just a failing problematic relationship & unreasonable behaviour from him]

He agreed to the counselling (pointless) and we lasted 2 more years. By the time it ended I was in bits, impoverished, on the precipice of a breakdown and having endured 2 more years of progressive abuse.

I asked my counsellor why didn't he agree to end it when I asked first. I have found this so hard to accept - as I could have coped better then, even with a newborn. She pointed out it was precisely because I wasn't 'broken' enough. He knew I had capacity to stand up to him. So he continued until he had virtually broken me.

EarringsandLipstick · 06/08/2023 07:59

@ManchesterGirl2

It is complex and the origins of the abusive behaviour are myriad.

However, for all an abusers there is an awareness of what they are doing, and a way they can control it too. They will all have a narrative that underpins for them why they have to do it, and in most cases, this will be demonstrating themselves as victims, not abusers. (My exH will tell anyone who'll listen that I was the abusive one & can make it believable).

All abuse is rooted in control. And for abusers to be 'effective', they have to control their actions & how they abuse. For example, characteristically, abusive men don't do it all the time. If they did, women would know they were abusers. While it might not help, they'd ultimately have more chance at articulating the abuse & getting help. Instead, he is sometimes abusive & sometimes not, which causes confusion, doubt & undermining of a woman's own belief in herself. That's how abusers succeed and how otherwise confident able solemn are destroyed.

EarringsandLipstick · 06/08/2023 08:00
  • solemn = women
neveradullmoment99 · 06/08/2023 08:00

Indigotree · 05/08/2023 18:40

Often they have extreme anxiety and need to control everything and everyone to cope with it, or a lack of self-worth that needs constant feeding, so they can't see past their self-preservation and think others are out to get them. They see themselves as victims and think their actual victims are driving them to it.

This 100%

Aozora13 · 06/08/2023 08:13

My MIL and BIL were/are abusers (she died a few years back). They both have a narcissistic personality type and have the ability to completely reconstruct reality to fit their own narratives. To quite extraordinary extents. They never take responsibility for their actions and it is always the other persons fault - “look what you made me do” - and always consider themselves to be the victim in any situation. Their actions are always justifiable (to them), however despicable. I think this is probably quite common - although I’m sure people also consciously seek to control and abuse whether through misguided ideas about obedience and discipline (thanks patriarchy), repeating cycles of abuse or just being bastards.

trustingfrogs · 06/08/2023 08:38

I would guess that in some instances they are simply repeating behaviour they have experienced themselves. That's not an excuse as we're all responsible for our own behaviour and to make sure we're not repeating the past, but perhaps it's an explanation.