Is it better to have a drunk and inept father or no father?

[gottanamechangeforthisone]

I'm still sharing a house with XP. He doesn't describe himself as an alcoholic but he dringks at least 4 cans of beer every night. He goes out and buys it every day to limit the amount he can drink as he's been a lot worse in the past. He starts at about lunch time and he's also a very heavy smoker (although he doesn't smoke near DS, he's always nipping out for another fag and leaving him unattended) and he just sits worrying about everything conatantly. he's not interested in any kind of professional help.

I don't think he'll ever change, but he's not horrible or violent when he's drunk, just a little slurred and dogamtic, and he loves DS although he's not as conscientous as me about looking after him. He'll feed him on chips or not bother to change his nappy when I would, nothing truly awful. The worst thing is that XP's not good at controlling his feelings so if I leave him with DS for more than a couple of hours, he gets irritable with him and tends to just tell him off all the time (DS is actually quite a good-natured toddler).

We've agreed that we'll get houses next door to one another but won't be in a financial position to do it for the next couple of years. I'm wondering about the influence he's having though; DS is already pretending to drink from cans of beer. It would rip XP to pieces, but I'm wondering if I should get DS away from him instead.

Just how bad will it be for DS growing up with a crap father who at least loves him and makes time for him? Or is he going to grow up to be a useless alcoholic as well if I don't get him away? I'm also worried that because of XP's age and state of health, both mental and physical, he might not live long enough to see DS grow up and I'm worried about the effect on DS if/ when he dies. It's so hard to get a sense of perspective.

My dad was an alcoholic, but I'm not, so I wouldn't worry that seeing his dad drink will make your ds a drinker too. I think it sounds quite a nice arrangement, and very civilised, which can only benefit your son.

I don't think living with an ex can ever really work out and don't see how living next door to him can be good for either of you either.
You can still put a little distance btw you - live in next town etc but still let him have a healthy relationship with his son

Thanks littlewoman. I would worry so much less if DS were a girl - perhaps I've ready too many theories about children modelling themselves on their same-sex parent. But perhaps if he knows lots of adults and can see both his Dad's good and bad points it will be OK. I have to admit that XP has had a very difficult life and is still a nice person despite it all (violent mother, philadering father, accidental death of siblings, terrible divorce) and at least two of those will never happen to DS as I'm not violent and he has no siblings. Maybe DS will be able to get some perspective on his dad's problems as he gets older.

posieflump - well maybe not next door, but near enough for DS to come and go is the idea. I have a feeling that XP would be a sod if I start another relationship so perhaps a little more space would be a good idea.

My ds dad was an alcoholic. We split up soon after his birth but I worked really hard to make sure ds saw his dad regularly (at first, his dad had to be with his mum on such visits as i just couldn't trust him to look after ds properly) Ds is now 11 and is a wonderful, polite, clever child with no inclination to drink. His dad sadly died 2 years ago from an alcohol related illness and although it was (and still is) really hard for ds, at least he knew his dad and had a positive relationship with him and good memories. You xp sounds a lot like mine and it's great that he has a good relationship with his son. As long as it stays that way, it can only be a good thing

Thinking about it, it's also because I don't want DS staying overnight with XP as he's more drunk later and he will forget to lock the door at night or leave the chip pan on or whatever and if we live nearby he won't have to stay over to visit. I also won't be able to supervise how much XP is drinking, how depressed he is or whether his home is safe for DS to be in if we're in another town. I think it would either have to be no regular access (easy to do, XP spends all his dole money on beer and fags, I would only have to move far enough away and he couldn't afford to visit) or close enough for DS not to stay over.

You say that he drinks at night (I'm assuming when your DS is in bed) but then you say that your DS copies him by pretending to drink cans etc...is he drunk/drinking around your DS? If so, that would be my main worry and I wouldn't allow that.
I am the daughter of a alcoholic but from the age of about 10 so my early childhood wasn't affected by this but I would say that your son will of course be affected by it- that is unavoidable and not your fault. As you are separated though you are in a better position to control how much of it your DS is exposed to and can explain it when he's of an age to understand. I would recommend Al-Anon to get support in how to handle you and your son's feelings.
Another worry is as he keeps drinking, tolerance levels change and sometimes behaviour changes- this happened to my dad- eventually one drink was all that was needed and he would be out of control- no way he could have supervised a child.
Good luck with it- you sound like a pretty balanced person.

From dh's experience he was much happier when his mildly alcoholic but utterly useless father left home. But his father never made any time for dh or any of his brothers, and simply wasn't interested in them (or anyone else for that matter). I think this is different from the situation with your dp.

Dh never drinks btw

Yes, MrsM, though I'm not an alcoholic, I can't deny that I was deeply affected by my dad's alcoholic behaviour. He was an absolute bastard on regular occassions, so if you do stay close to him, gotanamechange, you would have to be very alert to xdps behaviour towards your ds.

MrsMacaroon He starts at about lunch time and it's very difficult to tell he's drunk the time DS goes to bed unless you know him well. After two or three more cans, by midnight he's just very boring and slurring his words and repeating himself - the danger is that DS needs a responisble adult around even when he's asleep and I don't count XP as a responsible adult at that time I have to check that he's locked up, not left the fire on etc and he's clumsy. It's really in terms of DS's physical safety rather than anything else that I wouldn't let him stay overnight with XP.

That makes sense, if XP isn't interested in getting help at least I can get proper advice on how to help DS with this.

martianbishop: XP does make a lot of time to play with DS during the day - they're at the park now feeding the ducks and playing on the swings, so it's probably different.

my alcoholic father made endless promises (my mum kicked him out when i was 7) and did no end of bad for my self -esteem.
I wouldn't allow any alcohlic to care for a child, especially if you already know they are getting irritable or leave them in a soiled nappy. Friend ex actually peed all over his son and then collapsed unconscious from alhocl. Son is severely disabled and has epielpsy. It could have been a disaster. He's no longer allowed unsupervised access but to be honest he rarely sees his kids as the bottle has a stronger pull

Sorry but you must not leave your child in the sole care of this man.

You're also in danger of continuing to feel responsible for him - needing to monitor his drinking for example, when theoretically it's not your problem. However, of course it is your problem, because if a court orders you to leave your child with him, then you'll be putting your child in danger (which theoretically is illegal because a parent who leaves a child in the care of someone they know to be unsuitable, can be prosecuted for neglect. Ho hum).

I think you need to get in touch with Al-Anon so that you can get really good advice from people who have masses of experience in this area, of how to deal with this.

LittleBella I wasn't thinking about leaving him in XP's sole care. It's out of the question. I was just wondering whether it would be better for DS to be in regular close contact with him (because of the positives) or whether I should cut all ties; I can do either; XP won't fight it in court, he'll probably just become suicidal if I take DS away. I want to work out what's best for DS.

You are in a difficult position and it would be wise to get help from other agencies. It sounds as if your xp really wants a relationship with your ds and that at the moment they do spend some quality time together. Be careful before you do anything that could cut him out of your life completely - I know from my own experience how beneficial it was for my son to get to know his dad even though sometimes it was bloody hard to do and his method of parenting was very different from mine. Of course, your main priority is your son's safety so, yes, definately no overnight stays and get supervised visits at first if that makes you feel more comfortable (is there a member of family or freind who can do this?). My son did not have unsupervised visits with his dad for ages, until he was more than capable of telling me if there had been a problem etc. Also, i do think you need to seperate properly from him - for your sake as much as your son's. Good luck

I should also mention that my mum was an alcoholic but she was a lovely person and i know she loved me very much, so I don't feel as if i have been damaged by being around her, even though my mum was often in hospital on christmas and birthdays. I know this isn't the same for everyone, but for me, not being able to see my mum would have damaged me a great deal more.

Thanks so much. XP is quite safe with DS when he's sober (more cautious than I am about some things) and he does love him and they enjoy one another's company. I know he won't do anything worse than fail to change a nappy on time. I know that's not good, but it happens to children in nurseries all the time, so I don't think it's so bad if that's as far as it goes.

I think if I can sort it so we have separate lives, and DS can spend time with his dad (maybe an hour or two) during the day when he's sober, that will work out OK for all of us unless XP deteriorates at all. I will get professional advice as well.

I'm in much the same position as you but a few years down the line. XP is also a drunk, though not a violent one, just very irresponsible.

I think in the main, it's better for your DS to have contact as long as he's not being endangered. As he gets older, he'll be able to spend time with his father without it being a safety issue. If your xp is responsible enough to know that he's not capable of taking care of your DS right now and won't challenge you to have sole contact, then I think you should continue to allow your DS to have a relationship with him. However, I do think you're right about moving a bit further away - the boundaries will get very blurred if you live next door and will also perhaps give your DS false hopes about you getting back together.

Al Anon will really help you.

He doesn't sound too bad but I'd be reluctant to leave DS with him on his own. Who knows what might happen when you're not there.
DS wouldn't thank you for cutting his dad out of his life altogether if he's not an actual danger to him. That could actually do him more harm.
Let them see each other but just keep a close eye on things.

I'm a bit confused about how much he drinks. You say he drinks four cans of beer a night, but you also say he starts just at lunch time.
I wouldn't have thought four cans would be enough to get a hardened drinker drunk.

No, I agree, you can't have a healthy relationship through the booze. For me, I didn't want to put up with it anymore. For DS, the dilemma is about whether it's better to have the relationship that's on offer, or no relationship?

XP doesn't eat much (he also has problems with food) so at 7 1/2 stone, 4 cans has an effect, although you might just decribe it as 'relaxed' at first; he unwinds with the first couple of cans and then he's just irritating and even more useless than usual thereafter. Drinking weak beer and spacing them out through the afternoon/ evening is his way of controlling the amount. I think it's usually more than 4 cans, but he aims to sitck to 4 on a good day. I think it's more like 5 or 6 a lot of nights

no father, ime

My father was a wife-beating, alcoholic, child abusing shitbag.

I would rather have had no father on the scene than the one I had.

7 and a half stone? That's very light. No wonder four cans gets him drunk.

It sounds like this man is in denial; underestimating how much is drunk is often seen.

Would suggest you talk with Al-anon. I am glad to see that you are going to seek professional advice.

Saying you won't be able to supervise how much he's drinking is actually enabling behaviour. Your way forward here is loving detachment from his aloholism, enabling him will not work and will certainly make you feel worse. Would certainly not buy a house next door to him either; you need some physical distance from him also to stop enabling him.

Another thing to bear in mind is that although he certainly had both an awful and troubled childhood, not all people who went through such traumas end up alcoholic as a result.

You cannot change him but you can certainly change how you react to him.