DH friend kissed me on mouth (again). Told him not to - now *I* feel bad

[cabbageandgravy]

Ugh this is so awkward, I probably just need to vent. Very old friend of DH, they also work together. DH enjoys spending time and working with him, and he gets DH interesting work, too.

And I don't mind him (think he's a bit boring but that's not a crime!) except - he had this awful 70s and 80s throwback habit of kissing me (and , I think, other women he knows) on the mouth when he greets us. I thought hooray after the pandemic, that will put a stop to it. And it seemed to have - but today, he came round, and - straight for the mouth. Not enough warning to flinch away.

I realised I needed to don the big girl pants so I said to him "DH friend do you always kiss DH on the mouth when you greet him?" and he mumbled about a hug and had he really kissed me on the mouth and he hadn't intended to and... so I just cut him off with "just don't do it".

DH overheard but wasn't in the room.

Now they are right outside the door working on a boys' project and I just feel shit. It's so AWKWARD. I know I won't relax till he's gone and he's gonna be here all morning 😥. I just want some nice brisk replies about female socialisation to help me feel a bit more objective about this, and not just want to snivel. I'm 65 ffs and NOT A WUSS! But here I am feeling bad for standing up for myself...

Talk to me objectively!

Funny you should say that @Eleganz - I was just thinking how completely off it would seem if DH kissed the friend's wife (who we both know, albeit not so well) on the mouth - and how bizzarre. No way would that occur.

Yeah @knittingaddict perhaps you're right, though DH's friend isn't the only bloke to have greeted me this way, I guess he's the only one I still see and/or who still does it.

And I am realising that at first I didn't think I minded as he was senior to me in the field (that we all work in) and so it felt a little bit "flattering" to be "accepted". What am I, 16??? I was probably 50 when he started with this shit. I just gradually realised that he was an outlier and the rest of the sector - that I was new to at the time - just acted completely normally and acceptably. <heavy heavy sigh in the direction of the thoroughly depressing nature of female socialisation>

And yes, he is a creep. I know this. It wasn't just the wet kisses (bleugh) He often makes jokey slightly 'inappropriate' remarks but always under the guise of being very "right on" at the same time. Hmmm.

I will be talking to DH again when he's gone. I am pretty sure friend won't pull any more of this shit (He really respects and looks up to DH - yeah, I know. He does genuinely (publically) appreciate my work too though, to be fair)

@ChateauMargaux thatk you. WAtched the start of that - and am already hooked but I'm supposed to be working RN. I might look at that with DH later....

Why on earth would you feel bad, the guy sounds a complete creep. He's lucky he hasn't been slapped by someone if that is what he does. Honestly if someone did that to me (that wasn't DH obviously) they wouldn't be in my house again.

The only person I know who has ever kissed me on the lips (apart from partners) is my 86yo dad, and I thought that was really unusual - don't think he has done it for years 🤔 Surprised to hear of someone doing it to the friend of a friend!

If this guy is also 86 and doing it in total innocence, then yes, he needed telling!

This is an entirely different situation, but we have a lovely friend who is not at all creepy. My DH has known him since they were little boys and he is kind and derpy and clearly has very high-functioning Autism. He is the kind of guy who never gets a joke. He laughs along, asks for it to be explained and then tells you why it’s funny. He is my DD1’s godfather. I had to spell out very quickly after I came along that the kissing on the mouth thing had to stop as that was reserved for girlfriends and wives. He was STUNNED and then grateful that I told him. There has never been any awkwardness (because it’s him) and his wife (who joined the gang about three years after I did) and I are super close, and she occasionally brings it up when chatting about him and says “Thank god you told him that! If he’d kissed me on the mouth before we were a “thing” I would have kicked him in the balls!”

Yep @Helendegenerate unfortunately I think most of us experienced something similar. What I struggle wtih now is remembering that I didn't always just hate it? That I found it flattering when in hindsight obviously we were just objects. And I'm stuill grappling with that this morning 😭

I keep coming back to a phrase Victoria Smith used in a recent article - "sexy self objectification". That when we were - or at least when, I was - young I somehow learned to see myself as a commodity, with extra value added with each bottom pat.

It's something my daughter does on her social media, as in, posts selfies of herself posing and looking pretty/a bit sexy. And I am pleased she is condient about her appearance (I think that she wouldn't do this if she wasn't?) yet horrified that she sets so much store by it. And is, as Victoria Smith says, self-objectifying. But perhaps that's a whole other thread....

I do think that Ted talk is going to turn out to be very germane to my last post...will watch it over lunch (no he hasn't gone yet!!)

Ha ha good for you!

I am tactile with family and friends but if I’m introduced to someone I will offer my hand to be shaken. A friend’s BIL got rather shirty with me for offering to shake his hand when he went in for a kiss and I pulled back. I reminded him, while smiling (grimacing) that I didn’t know him from Adam so would stick to a handshake

I am 56 and have never seen any one do this, it’s really off. My DH would have thrown him out if the house friend or not. Definitely don’t let this happen again, I would make it crystal clear, it’s inappropriate and you do not like it. Poor you, what the hell is this guy thinking! I am going to watch the Ted Talk too, thanks to person who posted it.

Well done, you handled it really well. I agree with PPs that mouth kissing is an intimate act and this is a boundary issue.
Interesting that he does it too quickly for you to swerve. And his response shows that he knows he's wrong. It's a power display. But he'll probably swear blind he thought he was just being affectionate.
Now you've mentioned the kisses are wet as well, makes the whole thing even more 🤮
It's a good idea to prepare for people like this defending themselves and acting all hurt. Remind yourself that their "hurt feelings" (in reality, annoyance at not getting their own way) is self inflicted and not your fault. Bat away excuses with "I don't like it, so don't do it". Rinse and repeat. You owe them no explanation of why you don't like it, none at all.
I agree with a PP that this gets easier the more you do it.

👏👏👏👏 Well done OP

Ugh, how disgusting. Well done for speaking up - imagine how you'd be seething, yet again, if you hadn't and he would be going about his day without a care in the world.

I don't even do the mwa mwa thing with most people, just a chosen few. Can't stand it.

Swear to God I shake hands or just smile unless it’s one of my sisters, my kids, my husband, my mum (dad is deceased), my 3 closest friends. That’s it for me.

It's not the same thing but I have an Aunty who does this to absolutely everyone. She a genuinely lovely lady and I don't know if it's what they do in her family (she married my uncle). I just always turn slightly so she gets my cheek but if course in your situation, he needs to be told straight!!!

Yes I would indeed still be seething @franke . As it is I'm now fully talked down to a calm comfortable place by lovely Mumsnet and hopefully will not be menaced by slobberchops in future.

😂 at slobberchops <shudder>

Well done OP!! Proud of you, and thank you on behalf of all of us!

LOL at slobberchops 🤣🤣🤣

I love your expression "channel my inner Billy" - @billy1966 always gives great advice, so that expression will stay with me 😊

I think when men do this it is often a display of dominance. They know the woman is unlikely to complain because she will feel bad about making him feel bad. It's what they are relying on! And in reality, women (and girls!) who voice displeasure are, often, accused of being rude. They should find a nicer, more gentle way to say no, that doesn't hurt the other person's feelings, or, just not speak up at all and put up with it, because heaven forbid a man should be uncomfortable when a woman can swallow discomfort instead.

It's a great way to transmit cold sores, also, as well as the flu, Covid, strep, whatever's going around.

Yep, I was struggling with 'not wanting to upset him' but now I'm hoping I did, so he gets the message.

Talked briefly with DH who thinks friend is " a bit weird" about women and he finds it odd and childish. He hasn't witnessed anything predatory.

He clearly considers I have done the right thing, but I doubt he will say anything himself as he's very non confrontational. Which can be annoying, but Im pretty sure he would have my back here if I needed him to. But I have now relaxed into the kind words people have said on here, so hopefully that is now job done.

Thanks again for all the support and insight.

Completely with you on this, OP. For me, kissing on the lips is only for people I would snog. As @billy1966 says, in some families it’s seen as perfectly natural and means nothing but for most it’s a firm boundary. And as you say, would he kiss your DH on the lips? Clearly not. So there is an element of him assuming he can be intimate with women in a way he would never assume with men. He may be a nice guy but creeps certainly rely on women being too nice to say anything. You’ve done the right thing.

We’ll done OP now relax and enjoy your weekend x

Talked briefly with DH who thinks friend is " a bit weird" about women and he finds it odd and childish. He hasn't witnessed anything predatory.

Men are usually completely blind to other men's creepy, inappropriate, or condescending behaviour towards women. Very few can see it at all or understand how it feels to be on the receiving end or why we don't like it. They'll often make excuses for them, saying they're just being friendly/nice/helpful. Or they think we should be flattered.

Kissing women on the lips is not odd and childish. It’s predatory. At least it is for the women on the receiving end. Your H just doesn’t want to accept what he’s seeing.

Don't feel bad. You have done nothing wrong. He is a creep. People do this because they think they will not be called out about it and to be honest usually they are not. You shouldn't have to but I would kerp.out his way. In fact,I would go out every time. Coffee shop cake and a book.

Leave the Carry on or Benny Hill throwback with your husband