Alienated step children-dilemma

[lastminutewednesday]

We are in a really tricky situation-sorry this long but just wanted to get some perspective if possible from people who aren't in it themselves and who therefore might be able to see the wood for the trees.

A year ago my now Dh's ex wife decided she was moving 52 miles away to move in with her new boyfriend and she was taking his boys (my DSS's 9 and 10 with her).
DH had at that point had them 50/50 since his divorce 2 years prior.
DH attempted to get a prohibited steps order to prevent this. His ex wife made false allegations of drug abuse, domestic violence, stalking and financial control. These were disproven in court but as the ex wife had already purchased her house in the new town and because historically she had worked part time (though is now full time) whereas DH had worked longer hours during their marriage, the court allowed the boys to be moved but awarded us 40% time with them. There was also an extremely flawed cafcass report and a lot of the time in court was spent, from both sides, trying to iron out the issues with it.

The court order meant that we have to take the boys to school on our mornings with them ( a 3 hour round trip) and pick them up half way back on our nights with them.
This is a huge amount of time for us and cost in travel.
The court order also stated that they must continue to play for the football team where we live. The ex wife wanted to enrol them in the team local to them in which her new boyfriend is active. The court said they must continue to play for the side they always had and she must endeavour to bring them on her weekends to play there for a year and then they can choose. She has never done this, and instead enrolled them in the team near her-so they played every other weekend for each side. The football was important to dh-it was 'their thing' and it also meant they would maintain friendships and have some link to where we live and where they grew up still.

During the year that this arrangement has been in place the ex wife has
worked hard to alienate the children from us. Withholding contact for silly reasons,
refusing to Compromise on dates where family events fell on 'her' weekends, refusing to allow them to come to our planned wedding with a years notice, then going mad because they didn't come to our eventual tiny wedding (which was just Dh and I because by that point the stress was too much to do anything else), bad mouthing Dh and I, refusing phone calls and taking DSS1's phone from
Him so we can't call
Him (we go weeks at times without hearing from them), etc etc

Unfortunately the boys have succumbed a bit to this (they don't know any better, and at times they seem quite scared of her). It comes out in the way they speak to DH and the way they behave.

She emailed us last week to say the boys have chosen to stop playing football local to us and want to play for the team near her, so we will need to bring them on both Saturday and Sunday of our weekends. And we will
Need to change our routine of days in the week as training falls on one of them.
Dh and I have already altered our work schedules hugely
To accommodate the current routine. We spend 14 hours in the car a week travelling between places. It costs us about £400 in petrol. This will only increase if we have to take them on weekends too, plus we will have no family time to speak of at all (I have two older DD's that love their step brothers).

The ex wife has said the boys are 'desperate'to play for the team up there and it will ruin their football 'careers' if we don't facilitate this. She has passed that hyperbole onto the boys themselves and so now we are in a no win situation-if we agree to it it will have an awful effect on our family life and finances. If we don't she will
Use to it further turn the boys against their Dad and to a lesser extent me.

We have begun to feel the only solution is for DH to rent a flat near her, live there with the boys on our time with them, and spend the rest of the time home with me. This will be expensive but we will
Save so much on petrol etc and I can go back to work Full time as I won't have to do the long school runs, so will
Be earning more towards it. It's just about doable if we cut anything nice in life out and work like the clappers. It will obliterate our savings.
Dh would also ask for more nights with the boys and Could be involved more with the life they have in the new town-as is we pick them them up and drop them off but it's too far for their friends to come and see them on our weekends etc-and without the link to local football they won't really have friends near us anymore (which is why we wanted it in the first place).

But: This means that we won't be together half the time. We will never get any family time with my girls (after two more years they will be off to uni so I can move to the new town too, but we can't go now as they are doing a levels where we now live and their own dad is here). We will be getting absolutely rinsed on running two houses. DD2 has some mental health issues and it's going to be harder to manage those if I go back to work full time, though her Dad might be able to help. She feels a bit upset that I won't be around over the summer as much as would be at work. (I went self employed a year ago-gig economy stuff that meant i could
Be where was needed for all the kids).

The ex wife will oppose it if we choose to do the two houses and will inevitably make life as hard as possible.

But We either do this, or we lose the boys one way or another.

We just can't decide what to do, and we need to and Quickly as I've been offered a new job that offers a bit of flex which will help-and if we are going to do anything it needs to be asap before school etc starts next year .

Dh and I have both been in bits all weekend.

Had anyone any other suggestions of what we can do or how this might work?
It's so bloody stressful .

Yes it's definitely me that's incoherent and making no sense. Why are you so fixated on my girls. It's a bit weird.

I would go back to court and get things ironed out properly once you have chatted to the boys. I would also have a big family chat with all of you and make a plan everyone is happy with and understands that in a family things don’t always run one way and there is give and take. Hear everyone’s opinion. And maybe EOW and no fixation on the football is the way to go.

Running two homes some mad and I don’t think will have the impact to think. Make weekends at your home fun, not all about travelling to football.

Good luck with everything OP, parental alienation is a bastard and difficult to overcome once the rot sets in. It's natural for your DH to immediately want to find the easiest solution, thats normally the most expensive too! Unfortunately it's just never that simple when you have one parent who is absolutely determined to cause ructions. Another thing you could both try and do is look at everything from the boys perspectives... they are learning at the moment that mum calls the shots and dad does as he is told. They will be taking some damaging lessons into adulthood through no fault of their own. Instead of DH looking at how much access he has perhaps he needs to lay down some boundaries of his own. It does children no harm at all to learn that sometimes in life they have to compromise. Lord knows what they will learn if dad gets a property near them, away from you and your kids just to facilitate them doing football cos mum said so. They won't necessarily appreciate it (infact i know they won't) especially with their mum in their ear. Lots to think about and I dont envy you. Good luck.

OP, I came here open to the possibility that you had replied to my very direct point convincingly and proving me wrong. Unfortunately you failed dismally on both counts. In fact, you only worked to support my point: "you admit the girls' lives are now much better' with DH salary etc etc.

Ignore me, once you realise the posters advising you today that 1) it will only get worse; 2) once the rot sets in to alienate the kids there will be nothing either of you can do; and having spent many many years 'trying to find a solution to this' and then realising it had all been pointless, you will eventually get your light bulb moment that the THREE times more salary clouded your brains. Well, it shows in neon colours to me already. Good luck.

Yes, no one in their right mind would agree to the ex's proposals or put themselves to a financial disadvantage to simply dance to her absurd tunes designed to alienate or to punish.

However, I can think of many women doing this for the THREE times more salary household. You therefore cut your cloth accordingly.

@Snowy2022 , she doesn't have to answer you at all, and I hope she doesn't. You're weirdly combative to someone who is just doing their best. Oh, and I won't be replying to you either as you're clearly spoiling for a fight. Either go yell at some cars or get a hobby. Or make up another username, Calisto.

I did not ask OP to answer me. She chose to.

However, these threads where others helpfully try to explain it is a lost course and OP ignoring the advice are very common here. I was merely trying to establish why that was. I got my answer.

*cause

I'm sure it is a lost cause. But both Dh and I feel it's still important to try, in whatever form that eventually takes. Because they are his kids. It's our family. And neither of us could live with just giving up.
Indeed dads that do just give up are castigated for doing so. Can't win can they?

You can bang on about dh earning three times my salary all you like Snowy. You sound a bit unhinged. I wouldn't have chosen the stress of this and having to watch someone I love struggle for 6 times the bloody salary. I don't know how much you think social workers earn. You can Google it. DH isn't by any means bringing home millions. Plus I've had a short career break and I've still had to take a job on slightly lower pay that will offer me more flex so that I can be home earlier and doubly ensure I'm not neglecting my very nearly adult children, as has been suggested.

As I said, but which seems to be beyond your comprehension, 3 times a social workers salary isn't all that much when you factor in location, mortgage, commuting, petrol costs for the boys, and maintenance, plus as for everyone else, cost of living. We aren't on the breadline for which I'm very grateful, but we also aren't living a life of luxury. I'd be a pretty poor gold digger if I'd chosen Dh for that. Weirdly some people, and I'm one of them, actually love their husbands for who they are, not what they earn, and they are invested in their family life-be that with their own kids or step kids or whatever. As we are married and therefore consider ourselves to be a team we both make sacrifices for each other. Not sure what horrible things have happened in your life to make those concepts beyond you, but I feel sorry for you, as they do seem to be.

logically it doesn't make sense but I think it's the best idea for the boys.

those who are saying it won't make a difference and the ex will cause more hassle anyway may be right but their dad making a move to be closer to them will only be good for them. If the ex is spinning the narrative that 'your Dad wants you to be somewhere you don't want, play for a crap team' etc this will disrupt that narrative.

I really admire yours and DH's desire to put them first and sacrifice for them.

I know you've said you don't talk negatively about ex to boys but you need to use this opportunity to really talk positively about the boys and how much you love them, how much Dad wants to spend time with them because they're so amazing, will do anything, like move, to spend time with them etc - the ex is actively damaging the relationship and you guys need to ve actively strengthening it which it sounds like you're doing.

best of luck, yes the ex might be 'winning' but a few years of hardship will be worth it for the boys to know their Dad will always be there no matter what.

I agree with @OrangeRhymesWith and I don’t really understand the logic of pp saying to clamp down and don’t be dictated to by the football. That’s v risky imo, it’s going to place huge pressure on your family time with the DS’s to try and ‘compete’ with the football dream and they’ll just come less, make more excuses and eventually vote with their feet when their mum knows the boys’ pov will carry significant weight in court etc. I would rent a flat like you’ve suggested, the DS’s will always know their dad cared enough to do that and it gives him a fighting chance of staying involved in their day to day. I agree with you OP that without that routine involvement the relationships will drift. Good luck- I hope it works out.

Seriously? We live an hour away from DSS and if he said he wanted to do a hobby by his mum's on the middle day of our weekend the answer would be no. Without even a second thought, really, it just isn't practical, he needs to be realistic. We could find a local equivalent, but there's absolutely no way we're driving there and back every Saturday and we're certainly not renting a flat just for a club, that's madness.

It's one of the most spoilt things I've ever heard tbh. It's ok to say no to kids when it's totally and utterly impractical.

I feel like that's been lost in the discussion about parental alienation, tbh. Secondary to that, it is absolutely not essential that they be allowed to do whatever they want.

Exactly sofa!

Seems like all parties involved in this whole scenario are determined to all get what they want which is highly impractical but on they march to their own detriment!

let them crack on see where it gets them!

some people are at home with drama I guess!

It sounds very tough and very very shit for the children having to be in two football clubs etc, I think you all need to go to mediation and let the children have a real say here.

As a complete outsider here’s my two pennies worth. The journey from the boys school seems to be a long one and perhaps rather tiring for them (apart from expensive and time consuming for you ). It would make sense if they stayed with their Mum during the week. They could them come to you Friday evening til Sunday evening/or Monday morning every weekend and play for the football team near your house on a regular basis.
Goodness knows if that’s possible. I hope you manage to sort something out as that original court arrangement sounds unworkable

@notanicepersonapparently that was what we Initially suggested should be the pattern. She said no to that as she would get no quality time with them.

and it doesn't take away the future Issue that they will want to hang out with their school friends on weekends which they can't do from 50 odd miles away

The children have been asked what they want. And what they've said is, for things to stay the same except we do the football run both days on our weekends. Which as we can all see, isn't possible in terms of time and money.

Ex wife says it must be that particular team (presumably due to her boyfriends involvement there) and has persuaded the boys to think the same. None of them will consider a team equidistant between the two houses which would solve that particular problem in that they could play every week, with a more reasonable journey from both houses.

It's not only about the football anyway-but that's what's tipped an already expensive and tiring situation over the edge into undoable.
Which the cynical or maybe realistic part of me thinks is exactly why it's been done.

Courts are generally of the view that quality time with the non-resident parent is priority over clubs, parties etc. My grandson can only play football every other weekend because his dad lives 2 hours away meaning he can only play on the weekends he is at home. The football club are ok with that and I would imagine it's quite common across a lot of clubs due to seperated parents

I can assure you that none of this is what dh (or I) have ever wanted. Who would? And far from thriving on the drama I think we are both quite close to breaking point on it. The messages from the ex wife are horrendous. Trying to balance the info we give the boys whilst explaining the situation to them but without slating their Mum is tricky. DSS1 in particular
Is struggling. And we also have the rest of life going on besides-work, my DD's
Exam and boyfriend stuff, my sick parents, dealing with the aftermath of a household disaster we had last year.... it's all adding up. So anyone that fancies some drama can gladly take some of ours-as we genuinely don't 'thrive' on it.

Perhaps if the ex wife hadn't elected to move 50 odd miles away, to a place she and the boys knew nobody except her boyfriend in the first place, and where they had no other reason to ever go, life would be much easier for everyone concerned. But that's whats happened.
And the rest was what was decided by family court and cafcass in all their wisdom.

It doesn't matter what you and your dh do to work around his ex, she will always continue to be awkward and weaponise the kids. At the moment the kids will feel like they're the rope in a tug of war (not your fault at all). The more you fight for contact the more ammunition she'll have to alienate them from you. Unfortunately it's a case of if you love them set them free (and hopefully they'll come back to you, alienating kids usually back fires eventually). If you let go of the rope, your opponent will usually fall over.

Reduce the contact down to every other weekend, that's all that is practical with a 3 hour round trip. Obviously, football near their ex's won't be able to happen on your weekends. Push for regular facetime contact, the kids are almost at the age where she won't be reasonably able to remove their phones and tablets just to be spiteful.

And why isn't the ex doing half the driving around? Arguably she should be doing all of it since it was here that decided to move away. Having said that my own child arrangements order stipulates that my ex should do all the collections and drop offs, but reality is I've had to do them all.

I agree OP. It is insane - but eventually it won't be when you join him, and the two of you will just be part and parcel of their lives. The kids will be able to have their friends to yours etc. I'm sure the Ex will find ways to punish you but fundamentally you will both be able to say to the boys that you followed their mum so you wouldn't grow apart, and honestly they will eventually understand the significance of that (and also perhaps the significance of their mother removing them from their original area).

I'm worried that you are being a little black-and-white about the girls being 'at university' by then though. Kids don't leave home in one fell swoop - they are back and forth and still need to feel 'at home' at their parents house if humanly possible. You need to discuss this and if it's unavoidable acknowledge to them that they will lose out. Definitely do everything you can to be with your younger DD this summer.

We have talked to the girls. We've said when we eventually move proper they will always have rooms at ours. And they of course also have a place at their Dads which is near where their friends will be based, even after they go to uni. They would be welcome to come with us but to add insult to injury the boys mum now lives somewhere that regularly features on lists of the top ten places people don't want to live in, and although what I've seen of it doesn't look too bad-a bit dull and culture-less maybe, but not awful, I don't think the girls will want to do much more than visit or live with us short term
Whilst they are sorting themselves out for their next steps.

Dd1 is planning on a years travelling after she finishes school this time next year and then to uni, DD2 is a little more unknown.

They understand why it will have to happen but yes I'm very conscious they might feel a bit displaced, even after they have moved out. At least they will still have a link to the area through their dad, assuming he doesn't also move. That said I'm very sure that we won't see much of DD1-she is ready for adventure. And DD2 will be similar I think, in the end.

I'm in two minds about this summer. On the one hand I've been offered a job that will offer some flexibility and that I know I will enjoy and be good at-it's not quite main stream social work which I wanted to get out of, but still in that area and it's the bits of it I actually like doing. But it starts in two weeks.

On the other hand we can afford for me to do my part time bits until September and so it might be better to apply for other jobs (but which I might not like as much) and aim to start once DD2 is back at school and any move for DH has happened.

So that's another pressing dilemma which I need to make a choice on, and as we don't have all the information-what the boys will think, what ex wife's reaction will be etc etc, it's hard to know what to do on that score as well.

I'm turning myself inside out with it, so I'm going to stop thinking about any of it for a few days. We don't have the boys after today until early next week, and the girls are going to their Dads for the weekend, so DH and I are going to just try and have a nice quiet weekend and stop stressing about it and hope the answers come to us.

Thankyou again to everyone that replied. I have taken on board all the comments (except the needlessly unpleasant ones), and I am considering it from all sides, and all the ways it might play out.

would ex wife consider all of you going to mediation?

Wow, I had anxiety just reading your first post. So sorry you are dealing with this.

She has rejected it in the past but that's what we are going to ask for.