Mother/son enmeshment

[Indiechi]

I need as many opinions as possible on this as it is massively affecting my marriage - it’s along one but I need to set the context.

A bit of background; DH is an only child. He went to private school and hols/free time worked with his parents. He was brought up like a mini adult, given a car and taught to drive at 12, learnt electrics/building/pipe work etc.

Fast forward to uni, he went home to his parents every weekend instead of making friends/socialising with peers.

When we got together I already had 4 children from a previous relationship. His mother expected him to call without fail every day. One day, early in the relationship, he was at my house and the kids were playing in the background, his mother asked him why they were laughing at her and put the phone down on him. He then called her relentlessly til she answered. 🚩

Other things happened along the way but I just kind of overlooked them as them being close, one being that she told him explicitly about her gynaecology appointment/issues - he is a nurse but seriously, tmi. 🚩

Fast forward to more recent events. He is 43 and we have been married for 8 years. Last year dh’s father died so we spent a lot of time at the house. She has an enlarged, framed picture of him sitting in bed, shirtless, which she picked up in front of me and the kids (teens) kisses and says that he is her ‘sexy boy’. On another occasion she tried to give him a big silver necklace with a cross on (think ozzy osbourne) which he didn’t want, so she put it over his head and down under his T-shirt. She then lifted his shirt to see the cross, rubbed his chest and said to me “look at that sexy body”. He said nothing, just stood there.

On another day we were clearing out the loft crawl space and she said she could go in and get stuff - she hoisted her skirt up to her hips, got on all fours and crawled in - in full view of dh and I, not leaving much to the imagination.

The last thing I’ll add is when we went to see her because she had covid. She got out of bed in skimpy underwear, made no attempt to cover up and just walked around in front of us like it.

There are many more points to why I think this is an enmeshment issue but dh thinks I’m overreacting and they’re just close. Does this seem, just, wrong to anyone else or is he right and I need to back off?!

It’s likely that he’s doing that because although he knows her behaviour isn’t right, he doesn’t want to admit it to you or himself, so it’s easier to make light of it and act as though you’re just making something out of nothing.

If he felt the relationship was okay, he wouldn’t stop visiting her just because you might say something about it.

What does he actually do when she gropes him? Does he not see how I appropriate it is?

@FannyPhart He doesn't do/say anything. He says he can't change the way she is, but no, he doesn't see it as inapropriate. I guess because it's all he's known.

Personally I couldn't touch him with a bargepole. However - would he consider counselling? Especially if you said it was a dealbreaker?

This would give me the major ick

The chances are he's not going to see it. You can't make him admit it's wrong. If he's got too much invested in the relationship with his mother he just won't admit there's a problem. Doing so would mean undoing his entire life, viewing it from the perspective of abuse and ruining the relationship with his mother. I would make a massive guess that he isn't ready or willing to do it. Only he can reach that point and I'd be surprised if he does. My ex never did.

Well it didn't stop you marrying him and there is absolutely no way there were no signs of this odd mother/son relationship beforehand. It's very likely he won't want to change. You've said he doesn't call or visit her much so it's hard to even work out what you want to happen really. If you're going to talk to him about it then know what outcome you want, and what you will do if he doesn't accept your viewpoint.

The problem is that the enmeshnent can be so deeply ingrained that if you call a man out on it he may prefer his motheR
My STBX left me for a co worker 2 decades younger, they have a young child now and his mother is doing the same to him&her as she did when he was with me

Find a good therapist to talk it all out to

You can't have it both ways. It annoys you when you see their relationship. Now you're annoyed when he's not letting you see the relationship.
You have no way of knowing if their dynamic has changed. You're the one focusing on past events to the detriment of your current marriage.
Couples counselling might help because it sounds as though you're blaming MIL for a dynamic in 'your' relationship. And making vague demands that it's impossible for your DH to fulfil. If you no longer love or respect your DH, then move on. If you do love and respect him, then trust him to manage his mother. As a PP said, the relationship between your MIL and DH isn't new. Your disgust is.

If he's stopped going to see her, I think that suggests he realises she's acting inappropriately. Why else would he stop going?

But he's keeping in touch, while you aren't around, which I understand as he knows she annoys you and he doesn't want it to turn in to another disagreement.

I think perhaps he knows it isn't right, has distanced himself as much as he feels able to, and doesn't want to talk about it with you as a) it's a very sensitive subject that makes him uncomfortable and b) he doesn't feel able to accept it or do anything else about it right now.

Do you need to keep talking about it? It sounds like he's done all he can for now to stop it happening.

I would try not to blAme him as he is in a difficult situation - sounds like his mother has no one else so he will need to deal with the guilt if he avoids her.
I would look for a counsellor for him - one that can help with this. Who might help him see the problem and might be able to discuss ways to deal with his DM.

OP, you need to work out what you want to happen.

From what you describe it does sound very strange indeed, a very very high level of weird enmeshment. But it's above your paygrade to sort out, you won't get anywhere just trying to make your husband realise it's weird. Sounds like he's already put some boundaries in place that benefit you but disentangling himself completely will take a shedload of therapy - and he hasn't even got to the stage where he realises he needs it. So you need to figure out whether you can live with the status quo or not. Counselling for yourself might help. But you can't fix their relationship yourself.

Weird victim-blaming take. Seems to imply that the victims of abuse are somehow dirty or tainted.

Imagine if you knew an adult woman whose dad made these comments and groped her inappropriately, and who'd been so enmeshed all her life that she couldn't see that it was inappropriate. If a man said "I wouldn't touch her with a bargepole" I really think I'd slap him.

That wasn't my intention at all

I completely understand that this isn't my problem to try and fix. This all runs much deeper than the partial context I've given, if I go into the whole thing I will be here typing all day and no one will read it.

My purpose of posting was to try and understand whether I am seeing something that isn't there. DH doesn't want to see the problem and will probably never change the relationship or look for counselling. However, it has an affect on our relationship. It has an ongoing affect on his life, his health and has done for most of his life, he has just never made the connection because he's never been allowed to live a life away from her.

Surely if you care for someone and can see from an outside perspective that something has/is happening to them you would naturally try to help them?

Yes he doesn't go to the house as much but that doesn't stop her sending constant messages to have him running around after her when he is already under enough stress at work.

It's not a new thing, or any worse because she's on her own. His poor Dad never got a look in. Her entire life revolves around DH and if she can't have his attention, she will make him feel guilty for it.

I have never asked him to stop contact. I haven't asked him, not to go there. I wouldn't do that. The issue is more about boundaries.

Surely if you care for someone and can see from an outside perspective that something has/is happening to them you would naturally try to help them?

Of course. I sympathise, you must feel very powerless. Is there anyone else among his friends or non-weird family who can see what's going on? Teamwork can make for a more effective intervention.

Surely if you care for someone and can see from an outside perspective that something has/is happening to them you would naturally try to help them?

You cannot help anyone who does not want to be helped.

What about you in all this, you matter too and his primary relationship is with his mother because she has made it so.

This excerpt from13 signs your relationship with your mom is toxic and enmeshed - Selma Khan (khanselma.com) is primarily for your H:
If your mother often says how she left her career for you, doesn’t have friends, hates your father this is a very bad sign. What this shows is how your mother experiences a deep void in her life that can only be fulfilled by you. She is actively choosing to put her happiness in your hands, which is an incredibly irresponsible and selfish thing to do as an adult and as a parent. Your mother is supposed to fulfill your needs, help and guide you from being a child into becoming a self-sufficient adult. Parents who lean on their children in order to get their own needs met via their children are actually forcing their children to act like parents. Children are ill-equipped and not meant to take on the role of a caregiver. So if your mother has no apparent life of her own and continuously depends on you to take care of her emotionally, financially or in other ways, understand that this is unhealthy. If your mother is and has been turning to you for nurturing, love and support this is a very clear indication of how she is using you to fill the void she has inside. This is wrong and it’s not your job to fill the void inside any person, especially not your mother. If you feel a sense of loyalty towards her, understand that this type is called misguided loyalty. Misguided loyalty is when you try to do for someone what they must do for themselves. When your mom feels sad, angry or lonely she expects you to make her feel better, take care of her and be there for her. This job is supposed to be her partner’s job, never ever her child’s job. It is NOT your job to take care of her emotional needs, it is her job to take care of yours. You are her child, she is your mother. The enmeshed mother doesn’t understand healthy relationships, what boundaries are and how important they are or the different roles in everyone have in a family. It is therefore understandable if you don’t know what is considered healthy and normal and what isn’t. Because you are supposed to have learned the healthy ways from your parents and if they passed on their unhealthy ways to you, how can you possibly identify what is healthy and unhealthy? You are never supposed to play the role of her partner, her parent, her therapist or even her friend. You are and will always be her child, she is responsible for you, (and for herself because she is an adult) not the other way around. You can tell her to see a therapist or talk to another adult, but it is NOT your job to fix her problems, fulfill her emotional needs, wipe her tears, sit by her side or be her saviour.

“Parents who lean on their children in order to get their own needs met via their children are actually forcing their children to act like parents.”

Thats a good summary of the situation.

Might be completely off beat, but it is interesting that the relationship he chose to go into is with a woman who is very much a mother with four kids of her own. Does he just like being mothered? Are you part of a pattern?

She has an enlarged, framed picture of him sitting in bed, shirtless, which she picked up in front of me and the kids (teens) kisses and says that he is her ‘sexy boy’.
🤢🤮
What on earth!!

@Indiechi OP go on Discovery+ (there may be clips on YouTube) and search for "I Love a Mama's Boy!" It's a reality show that depicts 4 families who are like this and the effects on the son's wives/girlfriends

OP it does sound a seriously unhealthy relationship.

The main difficulty in getting him to do something about it is that she will be making him feel that you are attacking her when you try to discuss it. Out of loyalty and due to those great, heavy ties she has created, any questioning of the relationship will bring him to her defence.

He is very likely discussing aspects of your life with her too. Personally I would find that impossible to tolerate.

Unless there is a fourth party who can point out to him how pathological their relationship is, or unless he sees it for himself, it is unlikely that anything will change.

Time for you to decide how much you are prepared to accept. Is it too much? Can you maybe draw a boundary in your own mind about how much you want to have to do with her and try not to think about his communication with her?

I don’t think just saying it’s inappropriate is likely to really sink in much OP, this is his whole life. It sounds like it’s inappropriate, too close and icky but if he’s a good husband to you, has good boundaries with others, and his mother doesn’t dominate your life by taking too much of him…
Well I’d honestly leave it lie.

He probably gets it a little bit, but trying to ‘stop her’ is probably impossible for him, so he’s just going along with it.

Good heavens. His mother sounds deranged. Sexy boy! To him it may sound normal because to him it is normal, but it most certainly isn't

@Mistystar99 That's a very interesting point. Four children isn't something many men are willing to take on.

My worry if her sexual comments are new is that she dementia as a PP mentioned it can manifest in sex pest type of behaviour but if her sexual comments were always there then I would wonder if she sexually abused him because it's not normal for a parent to call their child sexy and she has shown poor boundaries when it comes to body privacy and autonomy.

The way she assumed the children were laughing at her doesn't indicate the best or most stable and rational thought process so there might be some mental ill health issues or disorders.

You can't control how she acts. You can try and have your DH seek counselling and support him with boundaries but this is going to be difficult and is conditional on him seeing the need to change things with his mother. You can only control yourself here, what can you practically do? Leave him, exclude and minimise your contact with his mother, he's already taking her calls at his work you can ask him not to talk about her with you.