Forgiving an abuser!?

[Forgiving83]

I’ve done a lot of reading about abuse after leaving my 10 year abusive marriage a few years ago. I sometimes now feel the same emotions like anger and frustration a lot like my husband did towards me.

He was abused by his father and when he was triggered he reacted. I now am dealing with the same issues only he has given these to me. I now deal with traumatic memories and my nervous system is really on edge a lot. His father did it to him and he did it to me. I want people to forgive me when I am triggered (I’m not on the same level as him, I tend to withdraw instead of hit out).

Should you forgive him? He has caused me a great deal of stress and my health has suffered because of that relationship. He was only acting out his traumatic childhood on me. It is up to him to fix his problems though like I am trying to do. It is hard to not react when you have been abused. I still struggle with noise, I can’t take too much noise as it puts me on edge.

He has not fixed himself though and has moved on to another lady. We share a child and he does have this victim issue, he has to be the one who was wronged. He tells our child lies in order to look like the victim. The relationship was toxic. If he felt wronged I was in trouble.

I can empathise with him but I still have feelings like I hate him. I also struggle with the fact I let him treat me so poorly.

I would imagine that his dd chooses to live with him and his revenge and vindication is complete (well ongoing, I suppose). I think you also need to be very clear to SS about him suggesting/encouraging your dd to live with him as residential parent.

www.cafcass.gov.uk/grown-ups/parents-and-carers/divorce-and-separation/what-to-expect-from-cafcass/alienating-behaviours/

Op I was hoping the SWers or similar folks on this site might chime in. I found this link by Carcass.

It would seem that identifying a pattern is important so if he recording absolutely everything your dd has said/relayed and also the effect in her behaviour/attitude towards you, and the effect on her behaviour and mH in general ... Like school.

I know you are tired and I know you don't want to go back to SS/courts but the fact is hrs abusing your dd, and still abusing you.

And surely the fact that he completed neither of the court ordered courses due to covid and due to his claims in court - claims which doubt is cast over by some experts in the field - is worth highlighting as well. The insight they thought he'd gained and the supposed change in behaviour is clearly shown not to the case - if you record and present these incidents.

*cafcass

OP there's some good advice relating to your later posts.

I want to post because I'm in a similar-ish situation. I'm living abroad with my STBX and there's psychological abuse. It's not recognised as abuse in this country because he hasn't hit or raped me...

But the sheer isolation of everybody believing him is awful. My lawyer now seems to think he's a reasonable guy and I'm a bit emotional. I remind myself that I am a broken person and he's not and she doesn't understand it.

I spent years and years trying to understand why he behaved the way he does. Well, after I'd spent years trying to understand how I could improve myself to be "better" and meet his emotional needs better.

It may be helpful thinking of the abuse he's subjected you to as being brain washed. You've been brainwashed to put him above you - and you don't even know you're doing it because you're brainwashed! All your posts include him. I was exactly the same. I definitely have wobbly days.

Don't worry about forgiveness. He has no need for or right to your forgiveness. Forgiveness usually involves the other person too. Fuck him. Focus on yourself.

The unfairness of the whole situation literally hurts all over, from the inside out. That's because it's truly unfair. You can't change that but at least don't give him extra space in your head. I tried one day to catch myself and stop my thoughts every time he appeared in them. I was shocked by mid-morning. Not only has he stolen years from my life, he's still got control of me when I'm thinking about him.

Might also be worth noting that it's no surprise your ex chose a younger woman. 12 years younger is significant. He'll appear wealthier than her male peers, and he'll be able to pull the "I know more than you" trick, subtly or overtly, because he's older. In short, she'll most likely be very easy to manipulate. So he will definitely be abusing her. There's no doubt. But the way he's doing it will be different, because she'll be more pliable than a woman his own age. And she won't realise it's happening for quite awhile. It's very sad. Your ex hasn't suddenly developed empathy - as evidenced by him abusing your daughter (parental alienation is abuse).

I found The Covert Passive Aggressive Narcissist by Debbie Mizra quite enlightening. It's cliched to say an ex is a narcissist. Many are just arseholes, lazily labelled to allow the labeller to label themselves a victim. Some genuinely aren't wrongly labelled though. And some of us don't want to be victims, we'd give anything not to be. It's useful to remember it's not a diagnosis, but when I found a description of his behaviour it made me realise that really, I wasn't the only one and I also wasn't making it up. And that helped me start to stop thinking about him.

Btw I was abused for most of my childhood - psychological and physical. I've never abused anybody. Being abused may be a reason for bad behaviour, but it's not an excuse. It's in the abuser's interest though for you to find an excuse for him.

Yes, @TicketBoo23 hits the nail on the head. Needing to control the narrative and "image management" is a big part of this.

Portraying themselves as "good fathers" and using legal systems/school systems and manipulating others is a bit part of this kind of the pattern of abuse that is being targeted at you, @Forgiving83 .

Some excellent advice from @DivorcingEU , sorry to hear you are going through it too. It is absolutely awful to hear your own lawyer is unsupportive; shocking. Lawyers need training on narcissists and personality disorders as they are so often supporting people who have been victimized by these types, it becomes a part of the abuse when lawyers are drawn into the manipulation. It is common to experience legal abuse in addition to family violence.

@DivorcingEU i do realise that he is in my thoughts an awful lot. Not during no contact for the 3 years but absolutely since contact has started. I do need to stop it as I can’t be in 2 places at once, when I think of him I’m anxious and not really present and pre-occupied. I feel I want to work him out to be one step ahead of him. The thing is I can’t think like him and I find it very confusing.

He has fooled everyone so far, the judges, well the female judges have been much better. I’m lucky in that it was a female judge who heard my statement and allegations because she believed them. The male judges have even fessed up to not even reading the statements. A female judge ordered a drugs test. He passed it and admitted to shaving all his body hair before the test as he took up cycling and the male judge didn’t bat an eyelid, my solicitor at the time literally couldn’t believe what she was hearing.

He did the fake DAPP where he “discovered” his dads abuse caused all his problems and that was it. It was all a lot of crap.

@3487642I so basically his whole thinking and being right now is to prove by any means he is a good person. He really does play a long game.

Yes it is the long game and it is his whole mode of operation.
This article will explain a lot :

onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/car.2611

Here's a summary of coercive control, from the article, which both you and your daughter are experiencing.

"Coercive control can involve numerous behaviours from perpetrators, including violence, threats, stalking behaviours, continual monitoring, micro-regulation of daily life, emotional, economic and sexual abuse, isolation, denial and manipulation (including by perpetrators sometimes being ‘nice’ and ‘indulgent’ to their targets) (Enander, 2011; Stark, 2007; Stark and Hester, 2019; Williamson, 2010). Many perpetrators use little or no violence, gaining and maintaining control without resorting to such obvious displays of abuse (Crossman et al., 2016; Westmarland and Kelly, 2013). Perpetrators often create a charming public persona, making it difficult for victims to seek help and be believed (Bancroft et al., 2012; Monk, 2017). The consequences of coercive control are cumulative rather than incident-specific, and much of its significance lies in its effects on autonomy and freedom"

You can learn ways to counter this and play the long game for your daughters well-being, but you need the right kind of support. Patrick Doyle's group is excellent and supportd women in your kind of situation.

Thanks @3487642I ive found the page on Facebook. It certainly is true what they say about never having children with a narcissist. I thought I was free of him but he’s like a dog with a bone. Leaving I fear has just given him more supply. Stopping contact makes me look bad and he is going to love using it against me. I even have a voicemail from when I left saying he would make sure our daughter would no the truth about her mum. Court didn’t care, they said it was in the past. These people never forget. Hell he used to bring up my mistakes from years and years back into arguments.

That’s the cycle of abuse isn't it. I don’t think of if as forgiveness. I think of it as forgiving myself for putting up with it. I could hate the person who gave me five years of hell, but what's the point? That would just hurt me. To me that person is dead, there isn't even a person there, they're of no consequence. All I care about is being a functional and happy person. I'll never forgive them but that doesn't mean I “haven't forgiven” them, just that it's not what I focus on.

You can tell your 12 year old daughter a basic version of the truth.
So you left because he wasn’t very nice to you.
A family court judge ordered the period of no-contact because the social workers/judge was worried dad would also treat her badly.
Keep it factual and don’t go into details about what forms the abuse took unless she asks you very specific questions. Bear in mind she will probably ask her dad about it later so your version need to be the truth without emotion.

I’ve been a bit of an idiot and I assumed that my daughter preferred him (she said she wants to live with him, he said she could) was because she made that decision, I was not a good mum and she preferred her dad. I was fooled into thinking he has moved on and that time had made him better. I was being fooled by his seemingly perfect new life.

We are just being abused again aren’t we? That’s why my head is a mess, he’s getting in again. He’s in my daughters head turning her away from me. It’s been working. The atmosphere over the past few weeks at home has deteriorated. She has been rude to me and to my partner who I’ve been with for 2.5years, they used to get on so well and now we all arguing. Shit.

Is there a school counselor or similar qualified person she could see? It sounds like she’s getting two versions of her history from her parents and it’s confusing her. Being able to talk it over with someone independent would be valuable for her.
Don’t lie to her if she asks you questions. Don’t agree or say nothing if she says ´dad says you stopped me seeing him’ or ´dad says the divorce was your fault’. You can tell her you were the one to leave because her dad treated you badly. You can tell her a judge ordered no contact. You can tell her Dad probably found it hard but you needed to look after yourself and her and leaving was something you had to do to feel safe and happy. She’s got to sort out the truth in her head based on 2 people’s experiences of a conflict. It’s really hard. You have an extra difficult role here because you’re not willing to lie or exaggerate, so you can’t present he truth as being entirely black and white.

@TicketBoo23 I've read your responses you are AMAZING! OP is lucky to have you respond bc you've hit the nail on the head.

The fact that he offered DAPP in court is madness to me as my ex portrays the doting father (he was at points in our marriage) but has denied EVERY allegation of abuse. I've offered contact to start so long as he does the course but ofc, if they deny, they can't access the course. They're only allowed on it if they admit. I'm back in court tomorrow and I feel like @TicketBoo23 has my ex all figured out.

OP if you haven't already please read "why does he do that?" Lundy buncroft. Enrol on the freedom programme!

What you're experiencing is a form of parental alienation he may be a good dad now or it's part of the facade they just show the world. Narcs have the biggest punishment - they live with themselves & they're constantly running. Supply supply supply! New gf new baby new home new car new job constant supply. The self gratification is never enough.

Please understand no matter WHAT you did for that man it wouldn't have been enough bc he saw absolutely no value in you. That would only have got worse over time and traumatised not only you but your child. Doesn't matter if he isn't a narc or any label. You haven't forgot how he made you feel.

That says enough.

I am due back in court tomorrow & yes like it's been mentioned even the WORST get access. My ex has been denied so far but I've offered contact centre & course. Ofc he must refuse.
A whole non molestation order later, he still stalks me online & he still puts out to the world "woe is me"

Yes @TicketBoo23 has been so much help. These men are like little parasites, like tics

Hello OP, you are already getting a lot of great responses and I really do not have much to offer. The only thing I would like to add is this. Reading your responses I can see a lot of pain and suffering; I strongly suggest you get some counseling to help you deal with this. I know that it can be expensive and may not be at all accessible to you but I hope you can get it. I have been separated for almost two years and in counseling for three. While I am far from being healed myself, I find it helps to chat with her every now and then. I am sorry for what is happening to you and I hope it gets better soon. Take care of yourself. Hugs.

I really appreciate everyone that has offered me advice, even if you are all strangers. I know a lot of us have experienced the same thing and I’m not alone. I read a quote that trying to understand crazy only makes you crazy so I will need to do my best to “let it go”. I have a nice life with my new partner and we are expecting a baby girl together. He is kind and gentle and has stuck with me even though I’ve been a pain at times and in pain. Healing is difficult but it’s worth it to have found him.

From what I’ve read I met someone, he liked my empathy and my sensitivity, I made him look good to others, I was younger also and was going to be someone in my chosen career. I did everything at the beginning for him as he painted such a sob story, I wanted to make him better because I am kind. Something changed when I began to question what was happening I was also becoming worn out, anxious and depressed. He went from absolutely adoring me to hating me at times. I understand this was because I was not fulfilling his needs. The abuse escaped as it made him feel in control of his out of control feelings. It got to a point where if I stayed I would have died so I left. He has
moved onto to another, has probably learnt from our relationship, they are in the lovebombing stage but eventually he will get bored or she will say something wrong and the de-valuation will start. He is using our daughter for supply. The cycle has just re-started. The way he re-writes history suggests he has not changed, he’s just been re-started and feels powerful with his young girlfriend, baby and now content with daughter, he feels vindicated.

I just need to learn how to deal with it with daughter so he doesn’t turn her against me. Also to stop trying to understand crazy.

Op

Your ex was a highly dysfunctional and toxic individual. He WILL absolutely be abusive to his new partner. There is no doubt about it. You cannot see what is going on behind those four walls and more to the point you must stop wondering about it.

What you are doing is constantly looking back yet that is not the way you are going is it? You should be going forward.

Do not discuss this man at all with your daughter, do not bother to mention his name unless she does. Keep the chat short and sweet. No questions about the relationship at all.

parents at war cause their children untold emotional harm that can cause life long trauma.

Also please reverse your idea that you triggered abusive responses in him. Sadly those inbuilt responses are consistent with abusive characters and they will rear their head in any relationship once the abuser feels comfortable enough to know he has a lot of control.

The best revenge you can have on anyone is to live a full and happy life. At the moment this guy is living rent free in your head. There is a new body of science emerging suggesting that ME is strongly linked to trauma suffered and reactions within the physical body are are response to that trauma. There is a FB group and some of the ME sufferers have reported success by using an app.

Start planning your future and if you must look back make sure it’s a glance and nothing more

@Quitelikeit absolutely parents at war can cause harm. But what about him re-writing history and having 2 days every other week to tell her lies about me and our relationship. She has come home on many occasions with things he is telling her and they are just not true. He is telling her I stopped her seeing him and I’m cruel. I stopped her receiving his presents at the time as he was told not to by a judge to stop but huge toys kept turning up. He sent her two foot judge cards with his face on, I didn’t give them to her. She said last week you were happy with daddy he has shown me all of the photos so why don’t you love him, why did you stop me seeing him, daddy said you stopped me but he fought and fought for me, why are you cruel? She doesn’t look at me the same and it’s heartbreaking.

How can I defend against that, I feel defenceless?

You are the adult here and you know the truth.

Daddy says you stopped me seeing him - you say ‘that’s not true darling’
or anything else she says - you say

’mummy did what she had to to keep you safe’

‘mummy had to make some tricky decisions’

’the courts helped mummy make some difficult decisions’

you have to be the bigger person otherwise it will harm the child

use stock phrases and responses - she’s too young to fully understand what has truly gone on

or

’mummy doesn’t agree with that’

and move the conversation on

You are wasting a ridiculous amount of emotional energy on him and it will not change a single thing

the only thing you can change is how you respond to him

currently he is winning and achieving his aim

@Quitelikeit he is probably not interested in me. He is winning and won the moment he was given unsupervised access to our daughter. His stories come with the biggest toys the best of everything. The brainwashing towards her impacts me because I love her and did the best I could to keep her safe.

Last week he told her she can live with him and that comment has sewn a seed that she is excited about. It comes with any toy she wants, she can do anything she wants. All she has to do is be brainwashed and voice an opinion and that’s that and he knows it.He is going to work on her relentlessly.

All you can do is give her a loving stable environment

No court will award him full custody as there is no reason

when she talks about moving there you say

well you are so lucky to have two homes where we both love you to be

or

the judge made the decision on where it was best for you to stay and he decided both mummy and daddy

do not let this vile man break you

he will not survive with his current woman. We can’t hide our true character

have you ever tried to change? It’s sooo hard, virtually impossible- a bit like going on a diet. You manage it for a while but then blah you just go back to your habits

like I say think of short nuetral responses to your dd. She is only parroting him - probably things he says to her when alone, dropping her home. Probably how she remembers what he is saying as at that age they forget a lot

Yes @Quitelikeit he is doing it away from the girlfriend. Sometimes dd stays at his place before going to hers the next day. That’s where all the pics and albums and stuff is.