DH’s crisis of masculinity

[Ujustcan031289]

Trying to get a better understanding of my DH’s outlook. I really don’t want any brash LTB comments because our relationship is generally good.

We’ve been together 10 years and I’ve always been the higher earner. Sometimes much higher sometimes only slightly. My job has more career progression and I have worked hard to climb up. DH is more limited, it’s construction sector and depends on seasons, he dips in and out of sole trader and contracted worker so it varies.

It is something he has only brought up over the past couple of years that he can feel emasculated that I earn more. That he is the man and he should be the main provider for the family. In a conversation over dinner tonight he’s stated that men aren’t happy unless they are providing for a family. I said he does provide for his family and works very hard and the fact my job happens to pay more is no reflection on him. Would he be happier to have a housewife and us have less money coming in and less of a comfortable life? No he said.

so I don’t know what the issue is or where this comes from. I used to think he was proud of me, he used to like telling people what I do and that I’m good at my job. Similarly I am proud of him and tell people so. He used to be my biggest cheerleader but now he seems to see my career has some insult to his ‘masculinity’.

He also sees himself as the ‘protector’ of the household. And has bared grudges against my DD17 having a boyfriend in the house like it’s some sort of threat. And when our car was vandalised in the street a little while back (and we knew who it was) he felt his role as ‘protector’ was undermined as I insisted we dealt with it through the right channels rather than the ways he wanted to which were illegal.

I have one DD who lives with us and he has 50/50 care of his 2 DDs. There are a lot of women around, is that it? Is there not enough testosterone in our house? He’s great with the girls he does all manner activities from letting them paint his nails and make perfumes to teaching them to fish and play football. He’s really strong on education for them and doing well at school and have careers so I just don’t know where it comes from.

to be honest I find it hard not to find it all a bit pathetic but I love this man very much and so I try where I can to respect how he feels. But I can’t see a solution to it or how things could be different.

I have considered whether he is having some sort of mental health crisis. Another factor is that he does now work with very, what I would call, ‘blokey blokes’ and the whether that’s an influence.

it makes me sad that he seems to take issue with something I am proud of. I was a very young Mum and a single mum for a long time and I worked hard to be independent and provide for me and my DD. It was at times very tough and its a big part of who I am, he knows that. I used to think it was one of the things he loved about me 😞

Sorry that’s long, but I don’t have many people I could let that out to in IRL and would be interested in thoughts or others experiences

I have one DD who lives with us and he has 50/50 care of his 2 DDs. There are a lot of women around, is that it?

Why are you looking to blame the very existing of women/girls?

Tell him to get a grip and do something about it if he finds his current position in life to be emasculating. After all, a big, strong man should be able to sort his shit out shouldn't he? Or does he expect his wife to be the one to provide that solution too? He'll start chipping away at your confidence soon enough if you pander to this behaviour.

I don't think he thought this way all along, no. Actions are the greatest proof and he offered to be a stay at home dad a few years ago.

Social constructs are hard to escape, especially in a "blokey" industry I would venture. My DH (SAHD for a while, despite fairly good prospects – Russell Group uni, used to work in the City in London, etc) is probably one of the most respectful people I know in terms of gender, who doesn't make a big deal out of it himself. Yet as a SAHD he gets uncomfortable and the tiniest bit self-conscious with overly lad-type people/stuff, he never projects it onto me but I can tell. It's a hard balance to tread: just think of Kevin from Motherland!

Even if he's not really reading/watching much MRA content himself, it seems highly likely that his colleagues are and their conversations are in that mindset. This is how it spreads and has become normalised.

If I were you I'd chat to him about the rise in this type of content, and point out that perhaps people he knows follow it as it's so prevelant. Maybe if he can see it from the social spread side, with the added angle of the future effect on your daughters, he'll become more aware and less influenced by that toxic mindset.

Jordan Peterson would be a help to him in managing these emotions.

Have you considered that he maybe just wants to sound off about how he's feeling right at the moment without needing or wanting you to change or for something to be fixed?

I think often men don't talk about this sort of stuff and it's healthy to talk.

If it's a problem for you to hear it and it's making you feel attacked or uncomfortable then it's ok to tell him that what he's feeling is valid but that you can't deal with it - it would be good if he could find some other outlet if that's the case though, but that's up to him.

Thanks everyone. There’s some good thoughts there and I appreciate the support.

i have been involved in campaigns for equal pay in my industry. It’s largely male dominated and I have had times where I have been earning less than my equal male counterparts. Again he has supported me in that and shared my anger and frustration.

I guess I kind of refuse to believe I accidentally married a misogynist knuckle dragger and that it isn’t the person I know and love. Hopefully it’s something we can work past and I agree with some that have said a knock in confidence could be the cause. Despite his more recent statements of ‘masculinity’ he’s actually highly sensitive and that could well be the trigger

Oh dear, OP, I think you have to massage his ego a bit ( yes, I know on MN no one must ever pander to a man, but sometimes you are better living in the real world).

you and (the girls?) need to tell him how important he is, and how he does/ supplies help and support which you couldn’t . Yes , I know that people on here like to pretend that single women are in every way better than a partnership, but you don’t seem to. So big him up a bit, it doesn’t have to be untrue, just selective.

even a cat likes a stroke.

I'm sure infantilising him will make him feel like the alpha male he believes he should be 🙄

It could be he is having a bit of a moment and needs to hear how important he is to your and your children's lives.

Or it could be that he has gone down an internet rabbit hole of masculinity under threat/andrew tate style stuff. The problem with google and other search engines is that they profile you and reflect back to you what you click on. So if I googled "earning less than your spouse" I'd get a completely different set of websites than your dh would if he googled the same thing.

This happened my step dad. A scientist all his life, highly intelligent. In his early 70s he got it into his head that maybe climate change wasn't real (what was really in his head was "I am more intelligent than all these other younger scientists so I know better and I don't want to change my lifestyle"). So his news feed and searches threw up some really bizarre fringe stuff. which he sent on to everyone as fact. I used to just delete it. My mum basically said, you can send it to your friends but not mine and not the people I work with. They agreed on that.

I'd ask him what he is reading on the internet.

I'm afraid I couldn't be bothered with any of this, I can't imagine anything less attractive than some man-baby whinging on about being emasculated.

I don’t think men recognise the consequences of the typically masculine mindset. Historically men have been the provider for a family in terms of finances, but why has that been? It’s been because women have been subjugated and denied education and opportunities. For what purpose? Why is the idea of a man earning more money than a woman, for no reason other than gender (rather than merit or ability), glorified as ‘masculine’? Why is enabling a woman to reach her economic potential not masculine? If he is truly considering what it means to be masculine he needs to look at the history and philosophy of masculinity and what it should or could look like now.

My DH and I work in similar professional roles. I happen to earn more than my DH but all our earnings are for the family so neither of us care who earns more as it all goes into the same pot.
my DH loves babies and kids. I don’t. It makes no sense for me to be a SAHM as I wouldn’t enjoy it. My DH would probably enjoy being a SAHD. Why should he believe he isn’t masculine because he wants to raise his kids or because his wife earns more? My DH protects me and provides for me by enabling me to reach my economic potential and enjoy my life (by not being a SAHM).

Having confidence in himself and respect for his wife is much more masculine than putting his value as a man in competing for a higher paycheque against the person he’s supposed to love the most.

Another factor is that he does now work with very, what I would call, ‘blokey blokes’ and the whether that’s an influence.

That is bound to be part of it. Also it's great he thinks Jordan Peterson is a tool but he's probably listening to similar sources and it's sinking in.

I don't think it means he's always been misogynist underneath but I would encourage you to challenge it and keep talking to him so he doesn't go any farther down that path, because once they do it's hard to come back

Also please don't fall for that evo psych bullshit yourself. Plenty of men today do not feel emasculated by their partners' success, this is not some kind of biological imperative.

I understand this competitive element of a man wanting to earn more than his wife is unpleasant, but everyone talking here is lucky that the discussion is men who want to look after their families - given the number who avoid taking any responsibility, financial or otherwise.

Urgh he is a sexist, whiny man baby

Women have to face the menopause, everyone understands this, but men also go through a difficult change somewhere between their late 30s and early 50s where they have to acknowledge to themselves if not anybody else that they have peaked and begun to decline in key traditional measures of male sucess and pride - physical prowess, including an ability to defend and protect the family, and their earning potential / career. These are both areas you highlight feelings coming to the fore OP. Him worrying about an unequal aspect of your relationship (earnings) may not mean what you think it does since it didn't bother him before... it may have just be a focal point for wider feelings of inadequacy he is struggling to process or articulate.

The world is full of younger men already above him in status. If he works in a very male dominated envirnoment, this will be highly apparent. He has peaked. It is over. All that awaits is a slow decline. Male penned literature is full of male characters who would prefer one last battle and an heroic death to their dotage. This is on men's minds. Male suicide rates peak at 50-54 at nearly 4 times higher than the female peak at 45-49.

If you love this man and wish your relationship to thrive, you should help him to understand that he hasn't stopped being a man or the man you love - you can do this in subtle ways at absolutely no cost to yourself. Let him drive. Let him open doors and carry heavy shit about. Let him do all the traditionally male tasks around the house... and simply let him know you appreciate this.

Despite everyone agreeing on the importance of mental health and the need to #bekind, the OP has inevitably triggered a significant number of the usual paradoxical misandrist responses - men should open up and share their struggles and feelings with their partner - right up to the point that they actually do, and then they are icky man-baby misogynistic assholes... yawn.

Oh I think people are being very tough and looking at this in a very superficial way. OP, you are reacting like these are cerebral beliefs of his, but he's not saying anything on that belief level (e.g that women shouldn't earn more). And the past evidence you've presented suggests that his thoughts are primarily ok. He's actually daring to tell you some pretty vulnerable feelings around his sense of masculinity and what's important to him.

This place is obviously going to sneer at that. But reality is that feeling masculine for men is often important. Perhaps the more palatable way of thinking about it is by thinking of potency.

All humans want to feel potent - capable, successful, productive, with agency, with choice, with drive to do and achieve. When we're in close relationship with someone, our potency becomes a balancing act with theirs. If they are super potent, we often end up feeling less potent. Ideally, partners have potency in different areas of life, so it balances out overall. E.g my man earns a lot less than me, but he is very talented and skilled and may end up earning more. He is fantastic at technology I am useless. So I rely on him for that. I'm great at other things that he relies on me for. He is the more dominant in bed and physically much stronger, and absolutely enjoys taking care of the family and the house and cars. I am actually significantly more intellectually intelligent..... so there are different ways in which we can feel more potent than the other, and can turn to the other for help. We have our realms of supremacy and I have huge respect for what he brings to the table and do tend to interfere in his realms - just feel grateful for what he does in them. I think this is a big reason why emotionally it's fine for him to earn much less.

I guess I'd encourage you to think about how all your realms work as a couple. Are you actually more potent in most areas? Do you intervene in areas that used to be his realm and either overrule him or feel you do it better? (He is already thinking about different realms, as he's mentioned taking care of the family as well as earning power).

Don't get me wrong. I am not saying you should ever make yourself smaller to make a man's ego happier.... if your potency is massively mismatched, one solution is simply to leave,

But I think that balance across realms is worth thinking about.... and also reflecting on what he or you may be unconsciously doing to tip the balance in a direction that long term won't work for you as a couple.

Sneering at his desire to feel manly definitely won't help.

And has bared grudges against my DD17 having a boyfriend in the house like it’s some sort of threat

I do hope your DD is feeling ok. What a horrible situation to have to deal with

Yes to betting he’s gone down an Andrew Twat style rabbit hole on social media. I’m not sure how reversible it is. It’s like brainwashing. Is he on social media a lot? YouTube? With people that are?

I think he sounds like a good guy who is disappointed that his expectation that he'd be the main provider for his family hasn't worked out as he thought it would. He thought that was going to be his role but now he's questionning what his role is. He just needs time to think it all through.

You see him questioning that as a pathetic weakness. You insult him by calling him knuckle dragger. Sorry, but it sounds like he's not allowed to have self-doubts and express them to his wife unless those doubts are ones you understand and approve of. If you think he should check his attitude and be more supportive of you, maybe you, too, should check yours and be more supportive of him.

That sounds like a lovely way of putting it, so I went back and read the OP to check that I hadn’t misinterpreted him. I hadn’t. There are red flags all over the place.

@UserNameTwo you have absolutely nailed this.
OP, it's not about your earnings at all - your husband is reaching a point in his life where he has to face his limitations and he'll likely be reflecting on lots of areas - is he the strongest, fittest man in the group he works with? Probably not. But is he the smartest? Possibly not. But can he protect his daughters and family from every evil in the world? As evidenced by your car being vandalised - nope, not that either.
But does he bring home the majority of the money for his family? No, he doesn't.
All of this will be becoming increasingly real to him and with him working in a physical role, and approaching the latter half of his life where injury and illness is more likely, his earning potential is not necessarily going up either. That's all a scary prospect.

It's not something for you to fix. It's just something for you to listen to and if you've got the bandwidth, help him to remember his value beyond the traditional markers of what it is to be a man. He is loved, he is healthy, he is chosen and respected by the people he has in his life, he can take pride in his family and their happiness and success as it's a product of him and his hard work.

Everyone has these wobbles and crises of confidence and I think it's brilliant and shows what a great partnership you have that he can talk to you about it, silence is the danger with men of a certain age.

In a conversation over dinner tonight he’s stated that men aren’t happy unless they are providing for a family.

Where does he get that idea? There are plenty of men out there leading very pleasant lives without having families and all too many who have no interest in providing for the families they have created.

OP have him look up Fidel Beauhill on Facebook. He works with men to help them feel secure in their masculinity without needing women to be less. Very sensible, level-headed stuff, nowhere near any of the incel content

In the last few years there has been a growing popularity in this kind of rhetoric on the internet.

These toxic theories damage men as much as they do women.

I've seen too many previously reasonable men changed and corrupted in their thinking. As a wife or partner it must be bewildering; how can you deal with a whole heap of distorted cult thinking when it suddenly gets unloaded into your relationship?

I do hope you can get him to see sense. Unfortunately there are so many of these little pricks out there, spouting rubbish, that it becomes a self-supporting echo chamber. From Jordan Peterson to Andrew Tate with a whole supporting cast of 'pick-me girls', it's hard for men to see beyond the comforting blame mentality towards a healthier outlook.

Look after yourself, your family and your mental health. This is similar to a cult that he's attached to and you need to keep a grip on reality. Another consideration is that this kind of thinking sometimes leads to violence, so please be aware.