No moral right to leave?

[Notsuchaniceguy]

I’m conscious that another post has come recently about a couple dynamic, told from the male perspective. This is long (to avoid drip feed) and similar in small ways but different in many others but parts of it touched me and made me think. I’m also OK with, and expecting, to be told you made your bed so lie in it. My ‘question’ is whether, having behaved so badly I have any right to want to leave my wife, even though our relationship is sometimes very toxic. At an occy health meeting recently, called due to my low mood and high anxiety at work, I was asked, quite simply, “Why are you both still married? Surely you'd both be happier out of this toxic relationship?"
I have posted elsewhere about my awful past behaviours and desire to end my marriage. In a nutshell, I was/am a ‘nice guy’ who may be a covert narcissist. Certainly I cannot keep any sense of self worth except by external validation. I had an emotional affair when with my first wife and bouts of limerence. Then a second emotional affair that meant I left my wife and children for my current wife. She left her husband and children although we saw a lot of them due to her ex’s work patterns. We moved in quickly, literally from our marital homes and ‘blended’ the children immediately as well. Just awful stuff.
The children are adults now, one at least badly damaged by their pasts, and we have none of our own.
From the get go my wife was very jealous, demanding my phone and questioning any contact I had with my ex wife, hating me dropping off or collecting children if she wasn’t with me. She also insisted on attending events for the children that their mum was present at. I was quite pathetic and did nothing to prevent this even though it was shit behaviour. My default is to hide from confrontation, I have/had a very compartmentalised and dissociative way of being – it’s how I managed my mother’s alcoholism and switch into drunken ranting and my father’s belief he was perfect and his contempt for his weak son. Go to my room, lose myself in a book, dissociate (or self harm). My wife’s default is to fight, use sarcasm and mockery and insults when she feels disrespected or unseen – although she can contain it in work, it comes out with family and me. Her childhood was worse than mine. Physical abuse and emotional neglect.
When we rowed and shouted about the children, jealousy, whatever, I would usually try to leave, my wife would block the doorway or grab me. I put hands to her throat once many years ago during one of these but usually I left the house, often in the car. Then I'd come home and we sort of pretended it never happened. I never behaved like that with my first wife, but then we rarely rowed when we disagreed. My current wife triggers my urge to flee, I seem to trigger her urge to fight.
Where we are now is in a marriage that was sexless and lacking intimacy for some years until just over a year ago. I asked for us to separate and my wife agreed it was the right move. It became clear that we would have to sell the house and rent and we moved to reconciliation, her not wanting to lose the modest lifestyle we have and my guilt about making that happen, although I was happy for us to use a mediator to ensure she got what was right (pensions and so on) and for me to pay her monthly so our incomes post split 'matched’. But reconciliation still had some awful days. My wife called the Police as I said I wouldn’t leave the home. This was after she had verbally attacked me for an hour, called me a cunt, said I’d promised her the world and given her nothing and much more. I think the trigger was not holding her hand in front of someone to show them we were back together. I had made her unseen and disrespected. A similar event was her opening the car door on the motorway after saying I was laughing at her after a row had escalated. She said if said something I thought I hadn't. I have no idea of the objective truth of it, maybe I did, may she thought I did. I was crying as we drove but I believe she heard laughter as that's what she said before opening the door, that I was laughing at her.
But parts of reconciliation were good, we resumed intimacy although that only lasted a month or so until I moved back to the bedroom, my wife then telling me sex was boring and uncomfortable and I control it. I get told that a lot about all aspects of things and it is true in part but then I am expected to know what she wants – I have been told often variations on “When someone loves someone they will know what they want without having to be told”. I can’t challenge this because if I say “Do you know what I want in that way” then I’m making it all about me again and deflecting her valid criticism. I admit I’m self-centred and exist somewhat in a world of “I” not “us”. I have also done some really shitty things – I kissed a friend when very drunk. I confessed next day and ended all contact with that person. It was years ago but I am righty reminded of it and for my wife it still feels like yesterday. I’m occasionally asked to recall what I remember and questioned as to whether it was more than a kiss if I was too drunk to have clear recall. It was "only"a kiss, I'm certain of that, but still cheating.
We had marriage counselling. The assessor said we were both abusive and needed specialist help. And then passed us for joint counselling. I rather agreed with the abuse label, I certainly think I need to never have another relationship and be very careful in friendships because of what I am. My wife said in counselling that she didn't see a need to change apart from being a bit less lazy. I do all the housework, all the budgeting, organise trips, holidays etc, my wife shops and cooks several days a week but spends most of her time on the sofa with TV and the dog- which I appreciate reads as 'poor me'. She says she lets me do it all because if she does it, I’ll complain about how it is done. Some truth in that I think, although I get really confused when she says things like “you control all the money” and when I say then let me get all the bank aps on your phone and here’s the link to the budget spreadsheet she then says “I don’t want to bother with any of that”.
Marriage counselling ended. I thought it might help but my wife said it was Ok when we talked about what I’d done wrong but she felt attacked if the counsellor questioned her about any behaviour or was “taking my side”.
So here we are. My wife said in counselling that living with me was mainly miserable with some good bits but life without me would be worse due to her having to give up her house and creature comforts. She says she'd never meet anyone else and needs a person to be hers. We are both 50s. I think life for me would be better if we separated (I could spend my money on therapy to be a better person for a start) but what right do I have to prioritise my happiness over someone else’s?



Wall of text, sorry if I skim over details but you don't require or need any reason to end a relationship. It is sufficient to decide that you no longer wish to be in that relationship. It is okay to call it a day. The end.

This is some toxic shit. Get out.

I haven't read the whole post. Far too detailed and the relationship is dysfunctional. Why do you need a moral right to leave? Just go and give the pair of you a chance of being happier. It's perfectly possible to be alone and happy and I'd suggest that's infinitely better for the pair of you than this horrible mess.

Toxic. Toxic. Toxic.

My wife said in counselling that living with me was mainly miserable with some good bits but life without me would be worse due to her having to give up her house and creature comforts.
She's still got a few years to find some other chump to finance/abuse her, if that's her only worry.
Plus you say: I was happy for us to use a mediator to ensure she got what was right (pensions and so on) and for me to pay her monthly so our incomes post split 'matched’.
So she'd be equally happy, or happier. Might as well do that.

Leave the relationship, it's making both of you unhappy. You have no obligation to financially support someone just because they feel entitled to it, especially without any joint children involved.

I'd recommend you look at Al-Anon for the families of alcoholics, it may help you let go of some of your unhealthy coping mechanisms which you developed as a child as a defence against your rageful alcoholic mother.

It took me an embarrassingly long time to realise that when you see people treat others badly, that’s them showing you how they could ultimately treat you.

You’ve been on the receiving end of this in 2 respects:

1. your wife saw how you treated your ex wife by having emotional affairs and therefore knew you were capable of treating her that way. She your relationship started with her being jealous and controlling as a result.

2. your wife treated her ex husband and children poorly (I’ve assumed from what you’ve said) and therefore you should have known you could be the recipient of this too.

This is why I really don’t understand why people have affairs. Why do people think they would be treated any differently - what makes them more worthy of loyalty then existing partners…

Anyway, your relationship sounds toxic AF and I think you need to get out before one of you ends up very hurt.

"what right do I have to prioritise my happiness over someone else’s?"

....doesn't seem to square with your concerns about being narcissistic.

You've been thinking about leaving her for at least a year iirc?

What's stopping you? Honestly, I mean. Because the relationship sounds awful and you're wasting your one and only life.

If you are genuinely a covert narcissist then you don't care about anything apart from yourself, you are not capable of genuine love, you are constantly looking for other people to validate you and you then become obsessed with them - until it turns out they're not as perfect as you thought and then you quietly become bitter and resentful towards them and blame them for everything that doesn't go right in your life. You will lie and gas light to get what you want, you have no real personality of your own, you become what you think people want, you hate confrontation and are very weak, you want to look good though and delude yourself about any manner of things. You will be very manipulative and passive aggressive, very low empathy and no remorse. You will have a huge ego and think you are amazing, feeding off other people's praise or encouragement - but have no actual self esteem and so are filled with self loathing at the slightest criticism. You are never to blame for anything (your self esteem won't allow it), you are shallow and selfish but might generally appear to be a really nice, kind, helpful person - a fake persona to make you look good.

If you're a covert narcissist them you shouldn't be in a relationship with anyone, it's incurable. Often going to therapy just enables people with NPD to learn how to behave even more like a 'normal' person - and they use this information to be even better at convincing people they are nice/good/trustworthy when actually they have very little empathy, no remorse and only care about themselves,

If you are a covert narcissist then do your wife a huge favour and leave her. You've messed up your children with your selfish behaviour, you've previously had your hands around your wife's neck. This is what narcissists do - they destroy everyone around them while thinking that they are the good ones and everyone else is to blame for everything. If you have covert NPD then I can assure you that you are not a good person, I was fooled by one for 25 years, lied to, gas lit, manipulated so I know all too well.

I am not quite sure what you want to hear.

Your relationship sounds awful and clearly has been for years. You have tried to fix it with joint therapy, which has not worked.

Your wife's only motivation for staying together is to keep her creature comforts, and you feel guilty for potentially taking that away from her. Doesn't sound like much of a reason to stay together.

You have four options, as far as I see it.
Leave and let her keep the house.
Leave and split everything.
Stay but live separate lives and do your own thing.
Stay and remain as a couple while living the rest of your life being miserable.

.

I too agree with PP re: checking out Al Anon as you may find it quite insightful.

With regard to your marriage, I have nothing to add to what has already been said, but it all sounds very toxic and for your own sanity and peace of mind, and whilst you are both still relatively young, you should separate. You can't sacrifice your own life to keep another fully functioning adult in the manner to which she feels she deserves

You can leave, you're never going to get permission to do it so you have to make the decision yourself.

But for goodness sake, sort yourselves out before either of you start another relationship. The only benefit to you two being together now is that it's only two people who are miserable, without some serious investment and work on yourselves you're going to spread the same rot to other people.

Life is too short for this misery. You would both be happier without the other.
No way would I live like that.

There is no moral right or wrong here, you are making the decision process far more convoluted than it needs to be.

If you are unhappy in the relationship, then that is all the reason you need.

@Choconut how certain are you about what you have written here about narcissists please, because for about the last 9 months or so I have been getting increasingly really worried that I might have become a covert narcissist?

But I genuinely do care and worry about the health and happiness of my husband, children, Grandchildren, including very much our 4 legged Grandchild. I also care very much about two of my husband's blood relatives, and their families and pets, and a couple of friends who I have known for over 30 years, and their families.

I used to care about being validated to a certain extent, and would love to not realise how crap a mum I was when my children were still children, and now through being increasingly disabled since my early middle-age (I am now old-age, and a sad burden to others - not that anyone has ever said that to my face) I have continued to be a less than adequate mum to my children, and a totally useless wife to my husband - I don't think that I am looking for sympathy here, or validation, from you or any other Mumsnetters, I am hopefully just trying to be honest.

My reasons for thinking that I could be a narcissist are that I already know that even though I usually still feel very loving to all my loved ones, I also get terrible (mainly internal) rages when I am exhausted and/or in chronic pain - which is usually daily - and my husband is the one who bears the brunt of that, even though he is my carer, so I really shouldn't push him away for that reason, if no other, but I do love him very much as well, and would not want to continue on without him. But my biggest reason for being scared that I am a narcissist, is because I have started at those times of exhaustion and higher than normal pain levels, to manipulate (or try to manipulate) my husband, and I may even gaslight him sometimes.

However, if what you have said Choconut is true, I don't think I am a narcissist, just a really nasty woman - which is of course terrible enough in it's own right. I have got to say that I have also thought - in recent months - that my husband could also be a covert narcissist, and I know that he would hate it if he was. He probably isn't, but I have caught him out in so many lies over the years, that he tells if he thinks he is going to be in trouble about something, whereas the only times he really upsets me is when he does lie to me, or claims that he didn't do something that I know he did do, and on those occasions I wonder if he is trying to gaslight me.

I will totally understand Choconut if you did not want to read my long post, and if you did, but don't want to answer my question, you have absolutely no reason or (I can't retrieve the word I want to use here, sorry) to do so.

@Notsuchaniceguy I am very sorry if this is highjacking your thread. I do actually feel sympathy (and empathy?) for both you and your wife. Should we continue to be punished, or to even punish ourselves, if we have done awful things in the past? I don't have the answer to that - if I did, I might not be in my own predicament right now - but we human beings are very complex, and we can get ourselves into right states and situations. I think the best that we can do is to try and be self aware, and at least try to be honest with ourselves, and then if we can't put right any bad mistakes that we have made in the past, maybe we can at least own them, and if possible, give genuine apologies to the people we have hurt. Maybe most importantly, we can or should (?) spend the rest of our lives trying to be better people, without going over the top - it would need to be sustainable. You probably won't be doing either yourself or your wife any favours if you stay in your relationship, but I can't even say that I have any faith in my attempt to give you advice just then! Sad situations all around really.

I hope that you reread what you have typed. I find the initial draft quite cathartic but then reading it again in a few hours or the next day even with fresh eyes fascinating because you get to see holes in your own argument for yourself.

I think it's interesting you attach morality and right to happiness to whether it's right to leave a toxic relationship. Might a better question be:

• Is it moral to stay in a relationship where we make each other miserable?
• Is it moral to stay in a relationship where we hurt each other to the point of being ill?
• Is it moral to stay in a toxic relationship for the sake of avoiding another failed marriage?
• Is it moral to stay so that we show others our relationship was worth it and that the naysayers haven't won? Is it moral to stay out of pride and spite?

You asked what right you have to priorities happiness over others but I think you are looking at the situation from the wrong angle. You're currently both miserable. There are some glimmers of happiness here and there, financially it's more comfortable, there is the familiar (and even abuse can be familiar). It's a comfort zone, it's showing people your relationship and uprooting your families was worth it but the reality is this mentality is dragging you both down. The stubbornness to admit and proceed with separation is destroying you both.
i have no doubt there is a lot of co-dependency going on there and I think you both accept two things:

1. you're no good for each other
2. both of you will have to lose some comforts in the separation

Mediation is not recommended when there is abuse so I wouldn't go back to that. I second the suggestion of staying alone and focusing on therapy.

I will say that this is a sad ending, it must have felt like this is a destined love union that was worth the upheaval and pain caused for your families. It's a marriage that has costed you both very much. I can understand why you both cling to it for so long. But in reality you are paying back nobody by staying in a toxic marriage. It's not going to erase the hurt caused to your respective exes and children. You punishing yourselves by sticking together, is it a way to show you are a genuine couple? Is it for your reputation? Because you get this one life and other people think of you very little, everyone is worried about their own lives. Remember that saying, best revenge is a life well lived? I'm a firm believer in that. What you've done and how you got together is years gone now, how much more will you be flogging yourselves over this? Nobody is happy or winning for it. The truth is there are people who will never forgive you for marrying each other no matter what happens between you as a couple and there are people who have moved on and don't even half care what happens to you two. Your children are adults, this is the time of all child rearing years to finally live for you. It's too late now and frankly irrelevant to wonder if it's moral to leave.

To summarise: Yes, leave. It's not about happiness or morality, it's about not killing each other at this point.

I thought it was relationship counselling that wasn't recommended when there is abuse? If mediation helps you agree an equitable split of the finances and assets, I don't see the issue.

I'd be happier alone. But my wife wouldn't or believes she wouldn't. That's my problem. I suppose as a narcissist I shouldn't care - but I do. I've hurt people in my life and I don't want to do it anymore. I think I was hoping for more replies saying you deserve each other.

You say you put your hands around her throat.

You are therefore statistically a significant risk to her life and, combined with uncomfortable sex (is it actually truly consensual if you're hurting her?), the cheating and everything else, she's probably very aware that not only is there all that in the background, there is always the chance that you will do it again. And she's angry about it.

Why does she have to lose her lifestyle/home because she doesn't feel safe with you?

We'd both be worse off. What we'd each pay in rent for a 1 bed would be £3-400 pcm than our half of the mortgage.
Selling the home would give us a lump sum each but not enough for a deposit to finance a mortgage. I earn more than my wife does. Hence being happy to split the difference post split.

Thank you I might but as said by someone else if I am a narcissist then I cannot change. I'm pretty certain I'd never cheat again, I don't use other's achievements to make me look good and I never feel a sense of being better than anyone else. At best I have thought I'm maybe OK, usually I dislike to loathe myself. That's why I try to be 'nice' as someone being nice to me eases the pain. That's narcissistic supply though isn't it?

I know words on the web carry little weight but I'm sorry you had that in your life. I've never thought Im a good person. I hated myself as a child because I knew my parents didn't want me. In fact although I seek out validation by being 'nice', whenever anyone says I am, I feel physically sick. Because my parents could say that too but their mask would slip. When my wife calls me a name or mocks me, it feels awful but honest.

What price happiness? If you can't live separately in the same house, divorced - neither of you gets a clean break if you do this - then accept the reduced circumstances and sell the house.

It's really not helpful trying to label yourself. It might help explain some behavioural traits, but aside from that it's not a reason for hand wringing when it's patently clear the relationship is toxic and doing neither of you any good. Yes, you'll feel guilty, but the pair of you are miserable.

There's no way I'm having another relationship. The more I learn about myself the more I know I need to be away from people.

That's a good point. The hands on her throat was a one off and in response to her refusing to let me leave a room. She was pushing me back from the door. It was maybe a second and I knew it was wrong and an indefensible response and it has never happened again.

Sex has always been consensual. One of my wife's complaints is that I do a lot of asking if XY and Z is OK. That's the boring part. My dad coerced my mother, I heard it. I never wanted to be him. The discomfort is positional due to the aches of ageing and arthritis.