Boundaries between my mother and my children

[Almosteloping]

My mum is a complicated and often difficult person. I'm increasingly wondering whether she has BPD or a covert narcissistic personality disorder. She certainly seems to display a lot of the traits.

My relationship with her is slowly breaking apart. This is a source of intense pain and sadness for me but I can't continue to tolerate her unprovoked, controlling and manipulative emotional outbursts anymore.

I have two young children. My mum is particularly attached to my daughter, who's just turned four. Mum is frequently starting to use her love for my daughter as a way of guilt-tripping me during her outbursts, and has used almost litigious language to describe the situation. For example, she's talked of me "withdrawing access" during a period of time when mum and I were not on speaking terms.

I feel deeply uncomfortable with mum continuing to enjoy a close relationship with my children while our own is in such a mess. More importantly, multiple red flags go up when she talks about my children when she's having an episode - she is very possessive of them, and clearly struggles with the idea that other relatives might also be close with them. I think she sincerely believes that, as the maternal grandmother, she is at the top of a hierarchy.

What is reasonable here? I've been taking the line that if she can't respect my boundaries, I dont want her in my family space. A few of those close to me have seemed surprised at how hardline I'm being, suggesting that I'm being overly harsh.

Has anyone been in a simular situation? I really need some help working out for myself what best protects my children and myself.

I don't think you're being hardline at all. It sounds extreme - and I'm not saying at all this will happen- but some NPD grandmothers try to take away their grandchildren. Again, this is extreme, but what I would say is, if she does have strong BPD or NPD traits then she's not entirely 'well' and you should be cautious.
I speak as a daughter of a complex and difficult NPD mum. Just be careful. It's hard but I wish you luck.

Protect both your children and yourself from your toxic mother by staying away from her entirely. She is not a good influence on your lives. Ignore any and all flying monkeys and other people who state you are being too harsh etc re your mother. Those people have their own agenda and are not interested in hearing your side of things so their opinion should be ignored.

She was not a good parent to you when you were growing up and she has not changed in all the years since. If a parent or relative is too difficult/toxic/batshit for YOU to deal with, it is the SAME deal for your children too.

I presume you only allowed your mother access to your children in the first place because you were hoping against hope and your own experience that she would behave better this time around. Your Fear, obligation and guilt likely played their parts too.

Like so many toxic parents now grandparents as well, your mother is showing overt favouritism to your eldest child at the expense of her other siblings thus also damaging their sibling relationship. The child in turn simply does not realise that they are being manipulated or being used as a form of narcissistic supply. She could well use your DD here
to get back at you as another form of punishment.

I feel she is using litigious language as a way of frightening you into allowing further access but grandparents in the UK at least have no automatic rights of access to their grandchildren. The onus is very much on her to prove that a relationship is beneficial to the grandchildren.

Have a read of and post on the current Well we took you to Stately Homes thread on these Relationships pages and read Will I ever be good enough by Karyn McBride. Dr Ramani on YouTube is also worth watching.

People like your mother do not like boundaries so will actively rail against any and all you try and set. She will also ignore any boundaries.

It is not possible to have a relationship with someone this disordered of thinking and I would think you have tried because she is your mother. I can well imagine your own childhood at her hands was no picnic and has left you with mental scars that need addressing not least of all fear obligation and guilt.

I would also suggest you find a BACP therapist to work with re your mother.

I've been taking the line that if she can't respect my boundaries, I dont want her in my family space. A few of those close to me have seemed surprised at how hardline I'm being, suggesting that I'm being overly harsh.

Your instinct to be firm in your boundaries stems from how your mother is with you. Those who don’t have similar mothers will never understand. Don’t use your friends’ situations to compare to your own. You probably have an instinct for who in your life you can be more flexible with (because you know from experience they won’t take advantage) and those you have to be much more hardline with (because you know if you give an inch they’ll take a mile). Trust your instincts!

Can you move a long distance away? I don’t say that flippantly.

I read a lot of stuff like this as my mother is similar (the JUSTNOMIL board on Reddit is quite helpful too)
My boundaries with her and my child are iron clad because I've read too much about mothers like this manipulating their gc as they get older - and nine times out of ten it is a granddaughter - with money, lies etc. The most serious situations I've seen, the teenage grandchild ends up moving in with grandma, cutting off mum etc because of this.
Personally, my mother is manipulative and toxic so spends very limited time with my child and I am always there. They are never left alone together which is something she really seeks and often talks about. It will never happen. She has never changed a nappy or done any intimate care. There have already been attempts with 'mummy said you couldn't have it/mummy said no but I would have said yes/mean mummy won't let you do xyz with me' that have resulted in contact stopping for a while.
To be honest, I only keep in contact with mine to avoid losing the rest of that side of the family but the second she escalated to talking about 'access' etc then I would cut ties.
Children do not need a grandparent to be happy. A good grandparent relationship can be amazing, but allowing a harmful one is of no benefit to anyone least of all you.
I would think very very carefully about what you do going forward and wish you the best of luck, echoing pp suggestions to find a decent therapist who can help you set boundaries. I went when pregnant and it was seriously life changing.

I don't say this lightly (none of us who experience similar, do) but your instincts are yelling at you to pay attention, and you should.

It's only a matter of time before she uses your DC to punish you. She will manipulate them and lie to them to get them 'onside' and 'against you'. Protect them at all costs.

Oh and I agree about ignoring friends etc who have different mothers - some of mine are horrified when I talk about boundaries, 'but she's the grandmother' yes and if she was a normal, loving mum like yours I wouldn't need to be like this! To be honest I mostly vent to strangers online 😂

sakemsongbird

The problem in the scenario you describe ie you being present with your child is that even if you are present the harm being done to your child is happening right in front of your very eyes. It can be a look of disapproval a pinch etc.

I would suggest you stay well away from your mother too. It’s not possible to have a relationship with someone this disordered of thinking.

You’re being completely reasonable. Be careful with letting her see your daughter. She undoubtedly loves her only conditionally, like she did you - love that’s conditional on you submitting to her control. And she’ll start manipulating her, like she did you. Mine made a big show of how much she loved my kids but it always felt like just that, a show. When she started to try making them feel guilty when they were still very young, I could see that the manipulation was about to start. I went very LC with her permanently.

Ignore her nonsense about you withdrawing access. Legal access to grandchildren is not a thing.

I agree with a pp that you shouldn’t listen to people who haven’t experienced this telling you that you’re being harsh. They have no idea, because they’re thinking that all mothers are more or less like theirs I.e. relatively normal and not controlling and manipulative.

If some family members were to cut ties with you because of your mother then they are not worth bothering with. People like this too also use well meaning but easily manipulated relatives into acting as flying monkeys. Are they actually worth really bothering with?.

My DH is in your situation. After seeing their effects on him I put a stop to them seeing our DC and told DH that until he has a healthy relationship with them, they won't be having a relationship with our DC.

FWIW a few of his family members stopped speaking to him (siblings).

Others have asked what has happened but respect our privacy and boundaries.

If anyone stops speaking to you because you're putting boundaries in place, they're not worth having around.

Do what is best, both for your mental health, and for that of your children.

Thank you all so much for these replies. I'm in the early stages of properly unpacking my relationship with my mother, and I'm really questioning my recollections and judgement. It is reassuring to hear that I'm not overreacting.

It's interesting that someone has suggested I trust my instincts. For a long time I've felt uneasy about my daughter spending time alone with my mum - I pushed it out of my mind because I'm naturally anxious and a catastrophiser, but I think I need to start paying attention to it.

All of this feels so sad. I didn't want it to be like this but she just manufactures conflict out of nowhere and I'm just exhausted by it now.

Honestly, we frequently talk about it.

Mum almost bought a house last year which was 2+ hours drive away. She was adamant that she'd be able to see us weekly and we could go to stay once a month for a weekend. She backed out of the purchase after I truthfully explained that we were unlikely to see her so often, because the kids are so young and our lives are very busy. She then bought another house a ten minute walk away from ours, but frequently likes to guilt-trip me about the other house she could have bought were it not for my negativity and lack of care for her.

You would've all been better off if she'd taken the house a distance away

OP, remember that our kids don't learn from what we tell them, but from what we show them.

You're currently teaching your kids that keeping a bullying, toxic person happy is more important than their wellbeing. Because you're making it more important than your own wellbeing.

I think you need to go NC. Move away if you can. Don't minimise this and don't expose your kids to it anymore.

Wish you well.

Agree. Honestly you can and need to do bucketloads or work to unpick and redefine your relationship with her. But it’s hard to do when she’s ten minutes away. Move to the other side of the country.

my sister and I both moved to the other side of the world. I’m nc with my mother - I have no kids. My sister is still in context but it’s much more manageable.

You’re so right to want to have boundaries and aren’t being unreasonable at all. Abuse
I have memories of my own mum dragging me along the hallway by my hair to my room as a child, then when I was crying for my dad, opening and slamming my bedroom door repeatedly in my face whilst screaming at me, as well as being slapped in the face. She’d go zero to 100 very quickly and for nothing. Married an alcoholic then another marriage to an emotionally abusive idiot who tried to control my life and pushed me across a room by the neck once, still choosing to stay with him. Ruined so many occasions having strops because I appeared to favour my dad.
Now she constantly bombards me with ‘love you’ messages and tries to act like she cares so much about me and my DS. Is always the victim when called out on anything and results in my gran (her mum) getting involved and refusing to acknowledge my last attempt at NC by messaging my DH.

My dad wanted some boundaries with my gran (she’s horrendous in her own ways too) and would apparently keep me in my car seat at times to stop them playing pass the baby with me. My mum commented before DS was born that I’d be just like my dad in preventing people being near him and would complain that him as a newborn had dared to sleep her entire visit.
Sorry, didn’t want to make this all about me, just demonstrating that I get where you’re coming from. A lot of people can’t see that parents would be like this unfortunately.

My own boundaries are that she will never, ever have my children unsupervised and I try and limit contact with her.
I can imagine your own mum is similar in that she doesn’t listen and will still try and force herself on you.
I try and keep in mind that if I can remember this years and years on, I can’t ever allow someone the opportunity to do that to my babies and that just because someone has a ‘title’, it absolutely means nothing. You don’t owe them anything, least of all a relationship of that only serves to be damaging to you or your children.

I hope you find some peace and reach a decision that feels right for you.

Posting here again, partly for advice and partly because I need to try to make sense of this.

Things have gone from bad to worse with mum in the last couple of days. The root of our current issues is her paranoid belief that I am trying to "replace" her with her younger sister, my aunt, with whom she has a strained, jealous relationship. This issue has been rearing its head for months now and I'm sick of it. Any contact I have with my aunt becomes a flashpoint, and I get guilted and shamed by my mum.

Rather than listen or try to improve things between us, Mum is obsessed with whether or not she's seeing my children. She yesterday accused me of "using them to punish her", "stopping her from seeing them", "taking them away" and told my sibling that she was never going to see them again. To be clear - this is all garbage. I have said that while she and I aren't speaking, it stands to reason that she wouldn't be spending time with my 4yo and 1yo children either. The more possessive and bizarre her behaviour gets, the less I want to see her or allow my children to be around her, and I feel we're reaching a point of no return.

I have no idea where to go next or what to say to her. I feel so sad that this has all become so ugly and unpleasant. Mum seems to be very distressed but the only way I can see to resolve the issue is to let her back into my family without any discussion or confrontation of the underlying issues. 90% of the time she is supportive, generous and kind. Then, often out of nowhere, we end up here.

It's crazy making. I was awake half the night wondering if I'm causing all this upset. I don't know what to do.

The problem is you're worrying about what you should be saying or doing - the answer is nothing! Her behaviour is working exactly as she intends it to, and every time you give in reinforces it.
Believe me, I was trapped in this cycle with my mother for years and it was a wonderful therapist who pointed out I had basically been enabling the behaviour by giving in to it every time. I'd put my foot down, she'd have massive tantrums, I'd feel guilty and let her back in and she'd be smug as anything knowing she'd got her way and could do it agains
I'd really implore you to stick to your guns, ignore her and keep yourself and kids as busy as possible. Any attention reinforces the behaviour. I was essentially able to 'retrain' my mother by completely withdrawing my attention when she started with this sort of stuff or trying to manipulate. She now marches to my tune or doesn't see my child and after all the therapy I know that I have it in me to go no contact if I needed to in future and I'd be ok.
Wishing you best of luck.

@salemsongbird it helps to hear that you've managed your relationship without going completely NC! What's her relationship like with your child now? And did you ever call her out on her behaviour, or did you just refuse to engage with it at all?

I'm over-analysing everything I've said, even though I know that this meltdown is inevitable, almost regardless of how I respond.

If your mother can't be trusted to behave respectfully towards you then you definitely can't trust her to behave properly around your children.

What other people might think about actions you may take to keep them safe from emotional abuse cannot be your primary concern OP.

This quite possibly will cause family upset that will be aimed at you rather than your mother. This can be difficult, painful and unfair.

Another return to this thread.

Does anyone have any advice for how to handle threats to take a legal route to get access to grandchildren? Word on the family rumour mill is that this is what she's talking about (she still hasn't spoken to me directly). The irony is that still neither me or my husband have said she can't see the children.

I'm speculating, but I think she wants to be able to see my daughter on her own. She has no interest in repairing her relationship with me, she just wants to see my children. This isn't something that would ever be allowed, right?

What is reasonable here? I've been taking the line that if she can't respect my boundaries, I dont want her in my family space. A few of those close to me have seemed surprised at how hardline I'm being, suggesting that I'm being overly harsh.
I expect those people have never lived with horror of a BPD or narc mother.
(& apologies & kudos any BPD sufferers who are aware of & struggling to manage their painful symptoms).

You CANNOT let third parties dictate your choices.
You know about Flying Monkeys, right?

Your mother compromised your own childhood. It's entirely reasonable for you to curtail her access to your own children. Don't let her faux-legalese worry you - grandparents don't get automatic rights to access GC in the UK. In the rare cases where this happens, it's usually down to the GC already having a major, reisdential, caretaking role, &/or the parent(s) being in some way incapable of providing proper care.

Stay strong OP