How much of this was normal? 70s-90s

[Cokeandapacketofcrisps]

I had a bit of a difficult childhood at times, nothing like some of the stories I see on here but it wasn't great. I've generally made peace with it but there are some things that I can't help but wonder as I've got older - and I'm curious what was, if not 'normal' at the time, not unusual? I'm aware how easy it is to apply modern values/parenting standards. I don't have anyone IRL I can speak to and would appreciate any views from Mumsnetters.

My mum left school (early 60s) at 14 and started working full time. Married at 19 and had a son. I'm not sure exactly when, but maybe early 70s they split up? I didn't know about this relationship or my half brother until I was in my teens. She told me the ex was abusive, that he and his mother conspired to keep custody of the child and that she had no power to challenge them as she had no money, couldn't raise him on her own without a house, and they promised him everything and labelled her as crazy.
She had no contact with him growing up at all as far as I know, despite him living less than ten minutes walk from us (I found out when half brother came to the house threatening her) She told us she was blocked from seeing him.

My parents got together late 70s, divorced mid eighties when I was a toddler. Dad apparently applied for custody but withdrew as my mum made threats to kill herself and implied us as well (this I believe to be true as have heard this from another party who is neutral). Mum and kids allowed to stay in the house with a legal arrangement that it would be sold once the last of us left education. She had very little money (worked part time in low paid jobs eg retail and bar work) so the mortgage must have been covered by the court ordered CMS.
Dad always went through the courts as situation very acrimonious - mum extremely bitter and angry, for the rest of her life really. Dad was only ever awarded 8hrs a week contact (Saturday daytime) despite having his own house, remarried, stable job and no abuse as far as I'm aware.

Mum got a new partner not long after the divorce. He was always mum's boyfriend, not a stepparent, despite him moving in and living with us until he was no longer able - when the house was sold when we turned 18. He drank a lot, had a good job in the trades but always paid in cash and spent most of that in the pub. He paid for a few big ticket items like Xmas presents and holidays but not the day to day - he didnt see that as his role. Don't think my mum saw it either, that was my dad's responsibility in her eyes. He would always talk about my mum being a 'looker' but that if he won the lottery he'd buy her a boob job. Always copies of the sun/star at home with the page 3 girls etc.

My mum never socialised with us children as a choice, and everything was around the local pub. We spent a lot of time sat in pub gardens with a diet coke and packet of crisps to share, while mum and step dad were in the pub. Big events - mums birthdays, new years eve etc - were always adults only, we'd be sent to grandparents.

Mum was so angry that my dad left that we weren't allowed to call him dad in her presence. She wouldn't allow us to speak about his wife at all (who was lovely to us). We weren't allowed to go to the wedding when they got married. My dad kept up the contact but never seemed to try any harder. He once told me as an adult that there was no advice or support back then about what to do.

Two of us struggled with really bad coughs and colds all the way through childhood. I remember being sent out of lessons to sit in the school nurses office because I'd have a rattly smokers-type cough and I'd disrupt the class. Never got taken to the doctors for this - my mum didn't like being told off about smoking and was scared of the doctor. Found out in my thirties that I've got moderate asthma and likely always did.

A few other things, like my parents never going to any parents evenings or really having any contact with school. Going to the dentist by myself. Being left with an older brother to babysit except he'd go out with friends so we didn't eat as didn't know how to cook. Going without lunch at school as no money and teachers knowing about it but no one saying anything. Getting detentions for not having uniform/kit that my mum said we couldn't afford. Being allowed to stay out until whatever time I wanted because mum would go to bed (drunk) by 9pm and not know if I was home or not. Telling me at 13 that I should sleep around if I wanted to be popular and that I'd be weird if I didn't (I know that last part isn't normal!)

.... Sorry that was long! I know some of it was of it's time, but I would be interested in any views. I only had my mum's version growing up and as I distanced myself I realised how bitter her worldview was (not just about my dad, the world in general). I know co parenting and blended families wasn't really a thing back then but I still question her version of events that I grew up with.

Didn’t want to read and run but none of that is anything like my childhood, my dm also left school at 14 with no qualifications, worked 2/3 jobs, dd also left school with no qualifications but went back to school to do o levels when I started school and worked his way up in a factory, we didn’t have much money but me and brother always included in social events - New Year’s Eve etc. sending you hugs for what you went through ❤

I'm a late 70's baby and none of that sounds normal.

Oh apart from the pub thing but it was very rarely in my childhood.

I think a lot of people will recognise some or all of your experience, OP (even if they aren't on mumsnet!). There wasn't the attitude to young people then, that there is now.

Stuff like sitting in pub gardens, being babysat by siblings who can't be arsed, not going to parties, absent parent not maintaining contact very well - I think that was not unusual. Kids were basically given more independence and parents didn't worry as much about emotional health.

However your mum sounds way off the normal track, whatever time period you're talking about, a mother should always show love and warmth and yours didn't. I'm so sorry that you had such a hard time. She wasn't there for you when you needed her and didn't make you feel special.

That's neglect.

No, I wouldn't say it was normal.

Im equally disgusted that the school did nothing about your health and your lunch money situation.
That seems quite common in those times and was a disgrace.

Your Mum is a fairly shit parent and your step Dad sounds like an oaf.

Your Dad was a bit useless too.

Telling me at 13 that I should sleep around if I wanted to be popular and that I'd be weird if I didn't (I know that last part isn't normal!)

Fuck me your is one dangerously stupid, irresponsible bitch.

*your Mum

Thanks all for the replies. I know the hands off parenting, focus around the local pub etc wasn't unusual especially in working class families in the 80s.

I've not heard of a married woman not getting custody of a child in divorce and not having contact though, and have always wondered about that - would women without family support have ordinarily stayed in abusive relationships? I also don't know anyone else who had such limited court ordered contact with a dad and wondered how that came about.

Mums boyfriend's attitude was definitely a cocklodger but I don't know if that was more acceptable back then too!

She wasn't a good mum, she did work hard in her own way but I just don't think she was suited to motherhood at all. I know she would have had children because that's what she was expected to do.

Some of it was the norm in my world (70s childhood, 80s teen).
The mistreatment of young mums, dad's having a peripheral role, especially following divorce.
Men being openly sexist, page 3, comments on their partners appearance.
Socialising centering on adults, and life in general run with adult convenience and wishes in mind, with children basically just being 'there'. So if your folks were pub people, yes, a lot of beer garden time.
Being left with young and inadequate babysitters.
Parents and other adults smoking around children.
Having to cook for yourself from a young age. Mother working so, being a girl, cooked for dad too from about age 11.
Having a lot more freedom to go out and stay out late and a lot fewer questions about where you were. We went clubbing at 13, no ID required so if you looked old enough you were in.
Being percieved as quite grown up at 13, so while not told to sleep around (that would be far from normal. Generally mums were obsessed with not being 'cheap') party to other adult chat and confidences.
What would not have been normal would be for a parent to be drunk at 9pm, to not provide adequate clothes or make food available.

@VisaGeezer or an alternative way of looking at it was that my mum was going by her own experience and was likely exploited in her teens.

Re the school thing, it's hard for me to understand why school didn't get involved - I know they would now, but I wonder if schools didn't get involved in things like that in the past. It's possible that my mum gave excuses and no one looked into it.

Some of that sounds familiar.
My mum was great though and tried her best in really tough circumstances but Dad was always the boss and she didn't ever dare argue with that. Dad was always in and out of prison. When he was home he was usually drunk so we spent a lot of time in pubs and saw a lot of fights and things young kids shouldn't see. I smoked from when I was 12 and used to drink in pubs from about 14.
He used to drink and drive all the time and we never had seatbelts on.

When he was inside life was more calm and normal but it never lasted. I shudder to think of it now, especially when I had kids of my own but then it all seemed so normal, I think it was so different then. Kids grew up quick and became streetwise to survive.
I'm so glad my kids didn't have that childhood and things are so much better now.

My mum said courts were very focused on how a young woman would financially support a child on their own. She initially lost custody but appealed and it was all around finance. This was very early 70s.

Thanks @5128gap I know my mum's drinking wasn't normal, she went from being a bit of a binge drinker at weekends to drinking too deal with 'stress'. Although she wasn't usually aware of what we were doing, I don't think she would have asked any questions if she had been awake, or had any concern about me getting home. I think she saw herself as an adult at 14 and saw the same for us, even though we were still at school.

One reason why I find it hard to have perspective on it, is that in secondary I happened to be in the catchment area for quite a well to do school, and I was bright enough to be in top sets with very middle class children. Their home life was obviously different but given the resources they had (SAHM's, two cars, hired help) it isn't a fair comparison.

Thanks @Spendonsend that's interesting to know. I'm aware that in the 60s my aunt became pregnant while unmarried and was sent away and the child was adopted at birth against her wishes, I know it was bad back then. I wasn't sure what difference being married would make, and at what point things started to change.

I saw a big difference between WC and MC childhoods too.
The MC children I went to school with were generally much more highly supervised, with parents more focused on them and their education, and treated them as though they were younger. WC kids often left school at 16 or earlier and were considered independent adults, so being considered 'grown up' at 14 wasnt that unusual in my world.
We also tended to have boyfriends that were a fair bit older (17/18) when we were 14 or so, who worked and drove. This wasn't seen as cause for concern. Quite the reverse if the lad 'had a good job'. Whereas the MC girls I knew weren't allowed to go out with boys.

@Imafirework oh god I'd forgotten about the drink driving! I remember my mum not letting my dad take us in his car until he got seatbelts fitted, but then her boyfriend driving from work to the pub every night then driving home after 'a couple' was completely fine...

Your mum sounds awesome. I think it was more common for women to expect to be the good little wife at home, and the men to come and go as they pleased. There were definitely low standards for dads back then.

Some of it was fairly normal in the 70's/80's I think.

We used to sit in the car park of the social club sometimes with a packet of crisps and bottle of pop while my parents were inside (but it was always daylight so I guess must've been in the summer months).

I don't ever recall going for family nights out on NYE or anything like that, parents would go and we would have a grandparent babysit. We on the other hand used to get together with other families with kids when ours were young, and have more of a family party.

Loads of people smoked around kids back then, my entire family smoked including all the grandparents, even though myself and brother were asthmatic. They say they didn't know it was harmful at the time and even though my parents still smoked by the time I had children they wouldn't dream of smoking near them.

Let's not confuse behaviour being fairly common with being normal.

@ImJustMadAboutSaffron well it was normal to us at the time. I never felt any different to anyone else.
@Cokeandapacketofcrisps yes my Mum was great and she did her best, I'm so in awe of how she dealt with all that - she was only 17 when she married my dad (shotgun wedding!) and he was a shit husband!

Yeah I know the smoking was normal - ashtrays on every surface, including in public spaces. I am disappointed about not being taken to the GP though. I had to really push for an asthma test as an adult (a good friend insisted I go) because the GP was sure it wouldn't have been missed in childhood.

My mum used to say that if we were well enough to walk to the doctor's then we weren't really ill. Although we didn't have a car so I'm not sure where that actually left us!

@ImJustMadAboutSaffron Its helpful for me to get an idea of what might have been common. It isn't to say that it's ok, or acceptable by today's standards. It wasn't until I got older that I understood some of my mum's behaviour was a bit bizarre (eg some conspiracy theory issues) So it is helpful to get an idea of what might have been 'of the time' and what was definitely strange.

An example of why I've questioned things is that my mum brought us up to believe that my dad pressured her to have children then abandoned us because he wanted to be childfree and that he had an affair, and that he didn't pay maintenance. I was an adult when I found out that he'd stayed in the relationship despite there being problems, then tried to get full custody of us, and that he had paid but most of the payment went directly to the mortgage company. He also didn't meet his wife until a year after they separated. I know the last part is genuine, we'd moved across the country and he met her in the new town.

Yes, there's a wide gap between "fairly common" and "acceptable" - even if those things weren't dealt with.

Your mum's reluctance to take you to the doctors because she'd get told off for smoking makes it plain than she knew she was damaging your health.

I would say that schools at that time were very reluctant to refer anything to social services. That was really reserved for children who were coming in black and blue. There was no safeguarding concept at all.

I find it very surprising that your mum's first husband was given sole custody of her first child, with no access. But it does sound like she was vulnerable and perhaps threatened into leaving him behind.

Sadly it sounds like instead of wanting to break the cycle of neglect and abuse and give you and your siblings a better life, she ended up creating a narrative of her life with herself as the victim, and simply repeated the patterns of her own upbringing.

My mum left school at 15, no qualifications, got married at age 17 in 1961 had a baby in 1962 at age 18, then had me at age 23. My mum and dad celebrated their 61st wedding anniversary a couple of months ago. What you describe isn't normal in my life, that said, life was obviously different for your mum. I won't comment, it's a walk a mile in her shoes situation.

@EvenMoreFuriousVexation I have a feeling that the truth about the first marriage may lie somewhere in between, eg that she didn't get custody because she didn't have the financial resources to raise a child on her own, but I can imagine though that she may have walked away and tried to make a 'fresh start' rather than deal with her ex, especially if he was abusive. I've never had any evidence about what the courts actually ruled. My grandparents didn't have much in the way of financial resources and would have disapproved of divorce.

She didn't have an abusive childhood herself, at least not from my grandparents, to my knowledge. Grandad in particular was very kind, not a drinker, more hands on than most men of his era. However she struggled in school, desperately wanted to be popular and would go to gigs and parties from 13 - not unusual in that era especially from the comps where it was expected to leave school at 14 - and I suspect that set how she viewed herself and men. Her self esteem was definitely linked to whether men fancied her.

You're right about the victim status though. She never wanted to 'better' herself and she gave us mixed messages - jealous that we had more opportunities than she did (eg college), critical if we didn't take them, but also critical if we chose to do things differently to her ('ideas above our station'). It's quite sad really, underneath it all her self esteem must have been on the floor.