Some questions for mums who are separated/ divorced

[EL0ISE]

I stayed with my controlling and emotionally abusive ex for years because of the children. Sometimes he said he would go for 100% custody but mostly he said he wanted at least 50:50.

I know now that this is such a common threat and there are other women right now living as I used to live, because they are scared.

So I wanted to ask other mums

1. How much parenting did your ex do when you were together ?
2. How much did he say that he wanted to have the children when you separated ?
3. How much did he actually have the children a year or two later ?

I’ll start

1. About 10 mins a day when he was at home, so about 1 hour a week
2. Either 100% or 50% minimum
3. The first 6 months he saw the kids about 3 hours a week then OW moved in and now he sees them about 4 times a year when he takes them out for a meal. They never stay at his place and he never take them away on holiday, so no overnights

1. A couple of hours a day during the week and lots at the weekend.
2. Every other weekend and as much as realistically possible in the week (we agreed to be flexible.)
3. One weekend a month pretty much. He buggered off to the other side of the country to live with his girlfriend after knowing her for about ten minutes, because he ‘deserved some happiness.’

1. very little because of ‘work’ . Left around 7am and returned anywhere between 8pm or later. Quite a bit of ‘socialising’ went on. He was in back-office banking/finance at the time. He started to disappear quite a lot over the weekends so very little time spent with them. He never did any housework, admin, bills etc although at the time I was a SAHM so I didn’t have a problem with that.
2. ranging between %100, so he could avoid paying any maintenance to me, even though he would not be home to look after them (he literally said he “will get two nannies to look after them, one for the night, one for the day”. Despite the fact we weren’t rolling in cash and he hated spending a penny. At that time we were definitely comfortable, yes, but not to the level of having a cleaner let alone a bloody nanny. Towards the end he was very pro me having them full time. They were, I think, 9 years and under when the divorce finally came through. He realised they would affect his social life too much.
3. He will see them for most of the day on most Sundays. All three are teens now and my eldest only turns up to his place for dinner (his excuse is he has a double shift or is studying for the next lot of exams). Middle one doesn’t leave my home until 3. He just doesn’t want to spend too much time there. My youngest has a difficult relationship with him and has started to make excuses to go there later or not at all every second Sunday or so. They’re all back by 7pm. They don’t stay overnight, they don’t spend weekends with him.

How much parenting did your ex do when you were together ? maximum an hour a day between him finishing work and me getting home. I mean that he played on his phone while they played or had screen time!

How much did he say that he wanted to have the children when you separated ? Wasn't clear at all to start with but eventually he settled on EOW - once he'd moved in with another woman who he could have their to help.

How much did he actually have the children a year or two later ? My kids requested more contact so they didn't feel like they were 'only visiting' their dad - initially we moved to 3 day blocks, then later 50/50. I think this was partially down to him proving to them that he had learnt to be an engaged and steady parent, whereas he never had to do that when we were together, because I did it all!

1. it varied. with eldest (severe SN), practically nothing at all. with middle child, slightly more, but not much. with youngest, more again (I had floated divorce by the time dc3 came along), but in real terms, still not much.
2. he was ok with EOW plus a bit more (not half) in school holidays
3. it varies. eldest hasn't always gone EOW. probably gone about 2/3 of the time. middle has had long periods of not going at all - probably gone max 2/5 of the time. youngest has gone probably 4/5 of the time.

1. He would do Sunday mornings and would check in on DD about 5 minutes a day, a pat on the head before bedtime. He insisted on having an au pair so that he would only have to do childcare when he felt like it.

1. He made a song and dance about how I had ruined his relationship with DD by moving so far away (I'm still in the same city) as he obviously had to keep the family home which is in a different area of the city. He pushed to have DD on weekends only.

1. We made this agreement about 2 years ago (exactly the schedule he wanted). Now he has a girlfriend who will do childcare for him and she wants more of her weekends back. So he is trying to bully me into changing to 1 day in the week and EOW. This will result in a reduction in the amount of maintenance he pays, so a win-win from his perspective. My DD loathes him.

There's lots of evidence that at the population level women are economically disadvantaged by becoming parents (it's actually one of the riskiest financial things a woman can do) and that they still do the largest share of housework (even though they are more likely to work fulltime now) and that they were disproportionately impacted by the COVID lockdowns, so the 'skew' is to be completely expected and not a skew but a reflection of the actual situation. If you'd read the replies you would have seen reams of responses from women who work and have their kids most of the time on top of that.

My answers:

1. Ex was an involved father, though I was part-time for years and did all the life admin which at one stage was a huge amount including when I was back full time when the youngest started primary. But he never acted as if he was helping when he looked after them and never did hobbies etc that took him away from the family.
2. We both assumed we would do 50:50
3. We have done 50:50 but they were teens, including one on the verge of uni - so the admin stuff has been much reduced and he has done the bits that fall on his week. Though when they are really struggling, they have wanted me to sort things out and waited for me to do it.

But he let me have the precarious accommodation and fully separating has been tough. I am so relieved I had my own finances.

@Godwindar Any evidence that exists is going to be problematic in two ways. One is where the sample came from and how reliable that is. Second is whether the questions are right.

A study could easily conclude having children economically disadvantaged my ex-wife if it just looked at what she earned relative to a woman who didn't have children. However, the devil is in the detail and the questionnaire probably wouldn't consider how many days she spent drunk in her 20s, how little formal education she engaged with relative to the opportunities she had or the extent to which she has refused to maximise her earning capacity since divorcing.

Imagine for example you are a PhD student sent out to to a survey by your supervisor. How do you frame a question to a divorced woman in her 40s to ask "why do you only work 16 hours a week when your children are 14" in a way that will garner meaningful results?

I am aware of research methodology. There is quantative data as to what proportions of women work fulltime now. At the lower end of the earnings range, we know there are several structural factors which may mean women work fewer hours, including lack of affordable childcare. Again this is quantifiable data. Also, a PhD level student doing qualitative research will be skilled in asking questions that get a range of experiences and a nuanced understanding of lived experience, so could ask the very questions you are asking.

However, if you want to stick to anecdata, you are on a thread with lots of women who work and have their kids most of the time and the acrobatics they perform to manage that. Indeed, when I read your post, it read actually as the experiences of many women on the thread, so it was surprising you would be so scornful about their 'skewed' views as you are living it as well! It's crap when the other parent doesn't step up, in most cases, it's women doing most of the work with kids and housework (including when they are in relationships). I'm an outlier on this thread in some ways as I have 50:50 with someone who is fulfilling it. But I'm aware that makes me lucky and not the norm. Though my equality came at a cost that I had to live precariously for a while and I am not convinced the kids benefitted from 50:50 - I certainly don't think it is good for younger children. Especially if one parent was the one who spent more time with them.

1. nothing absolutely nothing apart from tease them, eat their food and think he was fantastic for cooing ‘I love you’ over and over and waiting until they repeat it back
2. He initially said he wanted full custody, then 50%
3. often not turned up for contact. He never sees DC1 -her choice. dC2 he is supposed to have contact every half term, a week at Christmas, a week at Easter and 2 weeks in the summer. Last year he didn’t turn up for Christmas contact or the February half term.

He is a twat and doesn’t realise the harm this does to a child less than 10. I am currently listening to dC2 speak to him on the phone and he must have said ‘daddy?’ Over a hundred time - the man is clearly driving or busy doing something else

1. When required to eg if I was at work. Probably about 10% of the parenting + some involvement best described as babysitting. It never impacted on his life.

1. He left to move in with OW and said he would have the kids occasionally "to give me a break" not because he wanted to.

1. His time with DC is now about 30-40%. Including weekends, school runs, school holidays etc. I do all the donkey work /planning/ paying for things. He looks after them when it's his turn perfectly well but doesn't go over and above. I have to provide 100% of everything including instructions for activities they do and make every arrangement.

The reason I tend to be sceptical about their views is because whenever I say I am a man the conversation immediately changes and I get patronised about whether I would remember to do laundry or cook dinner. Hence why I think a poll of such people will get bad results.

As for quantitative data, a lot of the studies I've seen are deeply flawed. For example, there is a claim bandied around that "men are richer after divorce." The claim is based solely on their net income. What such studies tend to ignore is the relative levels of wealth of the divorcing couple. In a fairly standard case where there's a 60/40 split in childcare, if a woman has received 70% of the marital pot because she's a lower earner, it's not hugely surprising if the man then has a higher income than her. Of course, when you have divorced, you tend to know why. The woman was given more of the house because her mortgage capacity was lower; the man had a bigger mortgage capacity so he has a higher income but he also has a bigger mortgage. If you also equalised the woman's income in such circumstances, you would have an egregiously unfair outcome. The recent period of low interest rates might have made some of these men better off when the studies were performed but in the 1980s, 90s and going forward that would not apply. And it's in ways like this that the studies are flawed.

Do bear in mind too that this misunderstanding about income vs wealth is common. Our tax system for example is solely based on income and gains and not underlying wealth for example. This misunderstanding of "being rich" is so widespread it influences government policy in numerous areas.

@BetterFuture1985

As for quantitative data, a lot of the studies I've seen are deeply flawed. For example, there is a claim bandied around that "men are richer after divorce." The claim is based solely on their net income. What such studies tend to ignore is the relative levels of wealth of the divorcing couple. In a fairly standard case where there's a 60/40 split in childcare.

Can you provide evidence to support your claim of a 60/40 split in childcare? As someone who was an equal breadwinner while doing 99% of the childcare and 100% of house running I am curious. I now work full time, juggle all parenting be it wraparound care, illness, clubs, homework, meals ( I don't do frozen or convenience), doctors, dentists, opticians, parents meetings, sports matches, plays etc along with being there for our child day and night. I bear all financial cost with a contribution equal to ~4% of the cost of raising our child. My ex lives the life of a bachelor, from a relative wealth perspective it is incomparable. In our case, obviously that is best for our child despite his insistence he wants 50/50, but imo the least he could be expected to do is contribute adequately. The mental, physical & professional acrobatics I've had to perform for well over a decade to sustain should not be underestimated.

if a woman has received 70% of the marital pot because she's a lower earner, it's not hugely surprising if the man then has a higher income than her. Of course, when you have divorced, you tend to know why. The woman was given more of the house because her mortgage capacity was lower; the man had a bigger mortgage capacity so he has a higher income but he also has a bigger mortgage.

My income as the RP is worth less than the NRPs. Mortgage lenders look at earnings + dependents. As a sole parent with sole care of a dependent child a lender will lend me less than the NRP. I received 50% of the equity in our home (which was very little given we divorced not long after the 2009 crash) which I jointly owned and paid at least 50% of the mortgage through out ownership. In addition, as a woman I earn less than a male counterpart - the data is irrefutable in this regard. Lastly, being the sole adult responsible for our child, my career trajectory has inevitably been stymied. My income eroded by childcare and the cost of raising a child alone with (again I repeat) a 4% contribution from my ex spouse. Job opportunities that afford the flexibility to be present for a child are not as widespread as you might think, particularly when one has to factor in the cost of child care to enable that job. An increase in responsibility and earnings can often mean less money - certainly did in my case. I

If you also equalised the woman's income in such circumstances, you would have an egregiously unfair outcome.

Unfair to whom? This statement is the most striking of all as it betrays the underlying sentiment here. You appear to suggest the outcome should be fair for the NRP, or said differently at no cost / impact to the NRP.

• literally 5%, I done the night feeds, meal cooking, days out, nappy changes everything, he worked and gambled all his wages meaning I had to work full time and be a full time mum, he played football 3 times a week, darts 1 time a week and went out drinking at the weekend

• he said he wanted full custody and threatened it multiple times,

• he does not see my daughter, he was abusive so I said supervised contact with his mum, he never showed however still wanted to call the shots and threaten me with full custody, told him to go through a lawyer and haven't heard since

good riddance to him my life is so peaceful without him

All you're really proving is that every divorce is different, which is part of my argument. I don't believe the studies, because the studies should be completely irrelevant when it's about you, your ex and what actually happened. Unfortunately they are very relevant, because they influence a legal system who don't know you and don't try to find out.

@lockdownmummax im glad that you now have a peaceful life without him.