Can someone explain the difference between control, coercion and coercive control to me please!

[DivorcingEU]

The question in short: In relationships what is the difference between those three, and ideally not in extreme terms (ie coercing someone into committing a crime).

Long version with some maybe unnecessary examples, if you want more info as to why I'm asking:
I've read the law on what coercive control is, but it seems to be about getting someone to commit a crime on your behalf, or something big like that. Or coerce someone into sex - which just seems like rape to me. I can understand those big examples.

But surely before it gets to that point, if it ever even does, it's more subtle and nuanced? And that's what I'm really struggling to see. Where are the dividing lines between those three?

I'm not sure if I'm being clear, because I'm unclear on my head. So two examples of areas I see as grey - but might not be.

1. "D"H won't have sex with me for months because I don't greet him properly when he arrives home from work (I'm WFH at the time), or the house wasn't tidy enough (we had a cleaner twice a week and no kids!!). He would act very upset and hurt that I didn't care about his feelings enough to meet these needs outside the bedroom so he said it put him off even giving me a hug. Is this just control? Or something else? What is it?

1. "D"H wanted me to stay home and look after the kids and enable him to go further in his career. He never said this to me. Ever. Never even hinted at it. I wanted to study and retrain while kids young so I could also have a career. I spoke about this. He never said no. Never remotely negative. But in hindsight, he just put hurdles in the way all the time, subtly, in ways which meant I had to stay at home with the kids (study part-time with OU was only way I could manage). When I've tried to change things he's always hurt and sad and I've upset him, not been caring to him, not spoken in the right tone of voice or taking his big important job and stress into consideration. This went on for years. Finally I twigged and confronted him and he said "What do you expect? How can you have a career, you have children [his children!] and I have my career." So all along he was manipulating me to meet his needs. While I (stupidly..) thought we were working together as a team. I had no idea he thought this at all. Is that control? Coercion? Something else?

He's never violent physically or sexually (he'd not touch me over being violent). So I've never felt threatened like that. But there has been financial abuse running under this so I've been afraid of his power there. Again that's never directly threatened it.

There are loads of other examples and I've not explained it in detail because they've be so long. Maybe the examples are irrelevant. But I just can't get my head around what the difference is between control, coercive control and coercion.

The outcome of it was I kind of lost my mind. Couldn't make decisions about anything without consulting him. Lost all my self confidence. Basically was unrecognisable from who I was before we met - and only in negative ways. And I'm now divorcing him.

In Google you can trust

I think it would all fall under "coercive control" as it's his manipulation and pressure that controlled the options and outcome.

But I'm not sure why the exact wording for what it was matters so much to you? If you're not comfortable with the phrase, coercive control, use manipulation or control or domineering behaviour instead? It's all bad, it's all unacceptable.

Don't get lost in what word exactly sums it up, it's a red herring.

Control-Being controlling towards another. Eg. ‘It’s their way or the highway…’

Coercion- Coercing someone into a behaviour or action. Convincing/persuading/or pressuring a person to do, or not do, an act. An example might be: To commit an act of fraud that either benefits the person using coercive tactics, or both parties.

Coercive control-There’s a power disparity involved. Eg. An abusive spouse stops their partner from seeing their friends, convincing them the friends are not a healthy influence for them. Or…another example: The abusive partner threatens to leave the other partner if they don’t ‘comply’ with demands or behave in a certain way. There’s a power and control dynamic in-play.

I've done that and end up going around in circles. There seem to be more people writing g about it than actually know what they're writing about..and then there's grey areas.

If Google answered my question, I'd never have wasted my time writing all that out - far easier to type a few words in a search box.

Does it matter which subsection of abuse it comes under? He is abusive and you’re leaving. 👏 Well done. It takes a lot to recognise this and strength to leave. You’re one strong women.

Why is the precise definition or terminology for his abusive behaviour important? You know it’s abusive behaviour and you know you’re being abused. That’s all that matters.

What are your next steps?

Category you're totally right - he's an arsehole and it doesn't matter in one respect how to label it. But then it matters because I've been hugely massively gaslit for years (long process in understanding that too) to the extent that I don't know what happened to me, other than "it's bad". I can't rely on how I feel in order to say "It wasn't ok". So I can throw all the memories in "Bad" box but then I start doubting myself, am I being unfair to him, am I just wanting to think badly of him etc (obviously not but that's the threads of the abuse being pulled) and it all comes out and I have no idea whether I'm actually being unfair. If I can say "Coercive control is X and in this situation his actions match X" (for example, then it's a fast way to put it to bed. Takes emotion out and relies on rationality. Without the rationality it's honestly a nightmare. I've gone through this with all the gaslighting and only when I could decipher what was gaslighting, what was DARVO etc did I feel I had some control back over my mind. So trying to do that with this other stuff.

Wouldn't mind being able to skip it, but I'm just going with the flow of what makes me comfortable. It seems not knowing what it is called makes it hang around!

He sounds like a covert narcissist, have a look at Dr Ramani on YouTube, she’s also recently released a book called Should I Stay. He sounds controlling, passive aggressive and seems to like to place himself in the role of victim. He is incredibly easily ‘wounded’ and a narcissist is incredibly easily wounded.

Ultimately I know it doesn’t matter if he is or not because this situation is your lived reality. He feels angry and wants to feel better by punishing you. He then has to find a reason to punish you for his hurt and rage and that’s why these things he’s annoyed at seem so trivial. Because they are, but to him they are a gift he can use to treat you the way he does.

it’s never going to get better and you are never going to have the relationship you want with this man.

in my opinion the most important fact here is that he doesn’t want you to please him. That is the most important thing I think you need to realise.

If you didn’t work or you waited by the door to welcome him home or you jumped through every hoop and done everything he wanted, I guarantee you, there’ll be something else. Because he WANTS you to ‘do things wrong’ so he can punish you and take his rage out on you. You’ll never get it right because that wouldn’t allow him to treat you the way he wants to.

Thanks for this!

It seems simple - it's about a power imbalance - but then wouldn't there have to be an implicit power imbalance for control or coercion to take place? I'm struggling to think of real life examples where someone controls or coerces another and the other is their material or psychological equal.

I'm so sorry. I don't know why I can't see this as clearly as other people seem to.

It's embarrassing to admit but I've watched all her videos. Hours and hours of her. She's very helpful. Also listen to Laura Richards' podcasts as she points it out in real life situations (although at the extremest end of the spectrum). And I still can't get my head around it when it comes to my life.

I posted above why I need to know. It's also about making sense if my life. I feel like I've spent years in a sleep and a fog. Like my life wasn't my own (and it wasn't) and now I'm waking up, I need to know what actually happened.

All of this resonates with me and the relationship I had with my child's father.

I've said in a previous thread that I haven't experienced abusive men before and this is completely wrong, just that I always forget because as you say it's so subtle and happens over such a long time you lose sight of what is normal, who you are, and how normal balance of a relationship should actually be.

I'd love to compare with you more as I'm 18 months out of that relationship and stil making sense of it.

Oh I completely understand that op. It’s like waking up and seeing the light but you need to go back and make sense of it all to really understand what’s happened to you and you revisit it all otherwise you’ll feel like you carry it forever. He has definitely used CC to control you. Without doubt and he’s been gaslighting you too. If you contacted an organising like Woman’s Aid they would agree 100% that you have been and are a victim of CC. You see it now and you’ll never be able to unsee it. He could have destroyed you but he hasn’t and now begins the long journey back to being you and untangling it all. He’s the one who deliberately tied you in knots in the first place, he’s very clever. They usually are.

He’s the one who deliberately tied you in knots in the first place, he’s very clever. They usually are.

This is the other thing. These men are always described as being clever, of deliberately tying us in knots. I've definitely met men like that. But he isn't like that. It's almost like the goal isn't to tie me in knots or deprive me of anything. I actually don't exist enough for that. I'm not a focus of his energies. I'm a tangent to his life and it's him and his life that is his focus. I feel that if he deliberately tried to manipulate me, it wouldn't work, because he can't. But in a sort of sun-conscious way he can do it because it's about making his life as comfortable as possible for him. So he's just moving me out of the way of causing problems for him while focussing on himself, rather than actively trying to make me suffer.

Not that that's better or worse, but it just doesn't fit the "deliberate" narrative that goes along with all this.

He's even admitted things that he didn't realise were bad for me at the time, but he clearly wouldn't have accepted them being done to his sister or close female friend. But I have ceased to exist as a person in my own right to such an extent, that if it works for him, it's be extension good for me.

I wasn't going to go on tangents on this thread, but it's little things like control/coercion/coercive control being deliberate and devious by clever, conniving men that just don't 100% match what I've seen. Of I think I've seen, but maybe I can't read the situation properly? That's why when I Google etc I end up going around in circles: it all seems clear, then suddenly it doesn't.

Sorry lots of typos there!

And when you talk to the police about it they ask you for specific examples and I just completely closed up when they had that conversation with me.

Oh I see what you mean.

I think Lundy Bancroft has some profiles of abuser types he might fall under - Mr Sensitive?

1. You seem to be hurting his feelings constantly, though you aren't sure why, and he expects your attention to be focused endlessly on his emotional injuries. If you are in a bad mood one day and say something unfair or insensitive, it won't be enough for you to give him a sincere apology and accept responsibility. He'll go on and on about it, expecting you to grovel as if you had treated him with profound cruelty. (Notice the twist here: This is just what an abuser accuses his partner of doing to him, when all she is really looking for is a heartfelt I'm sorry.)
2. When your feelings are hurt, on the other hand, he will insist on brushing over it quickly. He may give you a stream of pop-psychology language (Just let the feelings go through you, don't hold on to them so much, or It's all in the attitude you take toward life, or No one can hurt you unless you let them) to substitute for genuine support for your feelings, especially if you are upset about something he did. None of these philosophies applies when you upset him, however.
3. With the passing of time, he increasingly casts the blame on to you for anything he is dissatisfied with in his own life; your burden of guilt keeps growing.

He used withdrawal of affection to control you.
He used withdrawal of approval.
This was a way of putting you on the backfoot and creating a power imbalance.

I don't think someone has to set out to do it purposefully, to be abusive. Intent isn't magic.

Maybe he's the main character and everyone else is an NPG in his life (which possibly makes him a sociopath?)

I'm impressed you went to the police - really impressed. Not sure I could cope with that.

I used to get so do confused I'd write it all down. I have hundreds of pages of it from over the years. Basically of me describing an incident then blaming myself and trying to figure out why I wasn't being as loving as I should be. Trying to understand why he's said what he did.

Thing is there's no way I could show anybody because I almost pass out when I read even half a page. I'm sent straight back to the moment and my world starts spinning - almost literally. At the time though I think by believing it was my fault I actually retained a sense of control - that in reality I didn't have. If I have to think of an incident though, my mugs usually goes blank - even just to myself, not even the police!

I don't even know if the police would take it seriously because he never directly threatened me.

I'm also not in the U.K. and CC doesn't really exist here. Which is another reason I'm trying to label it, because here it's just "two people getting a divorce who aren't compatible/don't get on any more". And that in itself feels like I'm being gaslit! If he'd given me a black eye, there'd be help for me. As it us, I'm basically an over emotional/irrational woman.

Gaslighting really really fucks with you.

I’ve been where you are. The wrong tone of voice was a big one. Realising that he was in my head all the time; if I go out, does he have a key?, I don’t know what time he’s coming home, but I’ll cook something ready and leave it as late as I can before I eat.

Wheras I don’t think I hardly figured in his thoughts. Truly out of sight, out of mind. Everything I was unhappy about was my fault, my problem. I dithered and dithered, re-examining past rows, arguments, discussions, deeds. Was I to blame? Am I over sensitive, looking to find fault etc.

The very very BEST thing I did was see a highly qualified private therapist.

Long story short, he was the problem, he was entitled and treated me as a child. I had no power in the relationship. I now see it oh so clearly, and it’s now all about leaving. No doubts at all.

However, I’m also aware that ironically I have passed all the power I had ‘given’ to my husband to my therapist. If she tells me he’s abusive, then that’s what he is. We are working on this.

After so many years of inequality in my marriage, I’m not able to readily take back my own power. So she’s sort of holding it for me on my behalf if that makes sense. Once my divorce is over and I have my own autonomy (he is still controlling me over the divorce and financial side), I will continue to strive to be my own person again.

So what I am trying to say, is after being demeaned and invalidated for so long I needed nor only to be told he was being unfair, but I needed an authority figure to place my trust in, until I could trust myself again.

So googling won’t work for you, your mother (unless she’s a chartered psychologist) won’t work for you. Ditto friends.

Well that’s how it worked out for me.

So what I am trying to say, is after being demeaned and invalidated for so long I needed nor only to be told he was being unfair, but I needed an authority figure to place my trust in, until I could trust myself again.

Absolutely recognise this. My decision making ability about his behaviour is basically non-existent.

I'm so so glad for Mumsnet too. Because I live somewhere where coercive control barely exists and gaslighting isn't a thing (in terms of legally and in the local language) I can't get the confirmation from the therapist. She's PhD level trained and worked for years. But I explained what gaslighting was to her. She then discussed it with 12 doctorate-level colleagues and one had seen something about it on Instagram. The rest hadn't heard about it. When it doesn't exist in the local language it simply can't be named! It also means there's no support services for women in my situation, because it doesn't exist. I mean of course it does! But it's a bit like not being able to provide services for marital victims of rape if you don't see rape as anything other than being dragged down a dark alley by a stranger. So yes, Mumsnet has really helped me in this.

When it doesn't exist in the local language it simply can't be named!
Yes; and back when I went through all this, the term "gaslighting" had not been invented for this sort of thing; I experienced it all the time, and knew something was wrong without being able to put my finger on what it was.

I know what you mean about the usefulness of being able to point at a behaviour and label it. Not to mention the usefulness of Mumsnet! – just the existence of the internet now makes it so much easier to find validation when your reality is constantly denied.

Re the deliberateness of coercive control, this conjures up notions of someone cackling as they fiendishly plot your downfall, whereas in reality they are more concerned with their own well-being; you are (as you mention) just a side player in that.

I'm still not sure what was going on for my ex-DH, but I sensed it was something to do with him lacking – and desperately craving – a sense of safety. He needed some kind of illusion of control because without it, life just felt too chaotic and frightening. Keeping me in service to him was important because perhaps my own life wishes, unleashed, might have derailed us from the narrow tracks our life ran along. He achieved this control in whatever way was easiest, mainly by pushing the buttons of my self-doubt.

But I think it was a sort of self-perpetuating neurosis, because built into the whole process is the fact that he could never have the deep satisfaction of knowing I was fully free and completely fulfilled in my life with him. The more he undermined me to keep me in my place, the more he must have known, deep down in his soul, that this was an insecure foundation for our lives; and that insecurity made him crave a sense of safety, and bob's yer uncle, back to square one, do not pass Go, do not collect your £200.

Alcemeg
Sorry you too know what I'm talking about. I wish I was the only one but then without all your experiences being shared I'd be in such an awful place right now - or I'd have un-lived myself, because in reality, I already got to that place a few times.

I really appreciate everybody who has replied. If feels like getting given a glass of water on a hot day. It's such a relief not to have people go "What is your problem? Nothing that bad actually happened." or "What? Are you sure? But he's such a nice guy. Maybe it's you misreading things." The guy actually has broken me. I've had two burnouts where I was so depleted to the point couldn't walk. I couldn't cry, talk, couldn't even think. They were both 100% due to the stress of living with him. Having people take the time to reply to my question and also share their own experiences - especially to something that seems so obvious to others, but I'm somehow struggling with - means a lot and helps. So thank you.

I’m another one who experienced similar, although he did go on to be physically abusive and more outwardly unhinged.

The tone of voice thing, good god. If I had a £1 for every time he said that. He started to go on about how everyone could see ‘it’ except me, how my friends (whom he’d never met or had any interaction with) were all afraid to tell me. Said awful things to me then completely denied ever saying them, said it was all in my head, told me id said things I’d never said, that I had memory problems, how he was seriously alarmed about my ‘memory problems’. Gaslighting to the extreme. By the end I was an absolute wreck. I questioned everything I did and said, wondered whether my friends really liked me or just pitied me, felt like the worst person in the world.

Well done for getting out. You will feel so much better. CAT (cognitive analytical therapy) has really helped me.

Gosh this whole chat has really made me feel seen x