DP and cleaning

[cluttercatastrophe]

DP and have lived together for three years (been together longer). He has a place by the seaside (where he’s from) and I have a flat in a nearby city. On a typical week, we spend four days at mine (work) and three at his, but it varies.

When we first moved in together, it was 100% in the seaside location, where we ended up staying a while due to COVID. Cleaning/tidying was never really an issue - we managed to keep a clean house by doing jobs on the spot and also having a big clean every few weeks. At the time, both of us were pretty average in terms of tidiness - not slobs but not neat freaks either. The main difference was that he cleans MUCH faster than me (I have no idea how he does it, he’s not as detailed but still gets much more done than I do in a shorter time).

Over the last year or so, DP has become increasingly obsessed with keeping things clean and tidy. On several occasions now it has completely ruined an otherwise nice moment (e.g. i want to have a hug but no, the coffee cup needs to go in the sink NOW), and he’s also become quite bossy, almost like a parent telling me to tidy up after myself.

We are moving back to his house permanently so are clearing out and renovating my flat with a view to rent it out. I’ve accumulated quite a lot of clutter and the flat wasn’t in a great state to begin with, so there’s a lot of work to do, and not all of it is straightforward or “visible” (lots of behind the scenes stuff and sorting through boxes; I’ve had days where I’ve spent hours organising things but it doesn’t “look” like there’s been a big change iykwim).

DP has been helpful on a practical level, but at times quite mean and critical about the progress I’m making (or lack thereof). He often makes comments about me not having done enough, how is this 5 hours’ work, it’s only a small flat, I could do this in an hour, etc. When I try to explain that it can take me several hours to go through one box, or list all the things I’ve done that day, he’s not interested: he just sees that the sheets haven’t been put on yet, a few plates are in the sink, and a box is half-unpacked (“this was packed when I left this morning” - well yes, but I need to sort through it instead of just shipping it off!)

So optically it looks worse, but I’ve actually put in a lot of time, if that makes sense. And I appreciate that I work very slowly.

He also constantly talks about tidying and cleaning. We’ll be having a conversation about work or whatever, and boom, he’s talking about what he cleaned that day in his house, or drawing up yet another strategy on how to de-clutter my place. It’s obviously on his mind a lot which can’t be fun for him either.

I’m sad to say it’s become a huge - maybe the biggest ever - stressor in our relationship. We constantly fight about it and I’ve asked him several times not to criticize what I’ve done in a given day and just acknowledge that I’m trying, but he keeps doing it.

In all other areas he’s a lovely man, super supportive and kind, always puts my needs in front of his, and never gives me grief or criticizes me about anything else. To be clear, he’s doing a lot of the cleaning/tidying himself, and volunteered to help as it was his idea to start this whole project.

I think he is genuinely perplexed at how long it’s taking me, and feels unsettled living in the flat (in fairness it is not very homely at the moment, lots of boxes and temporary furniture - I hate it too but it is what it is).

His obsession with cleaning is obviously the main issue, though.

i know this sounds so trivial but I am in tears right now after another argument and just feel completely useless and powerless. The decluttering and cleaning is bad enough without him making me feel like shit about it.

Please help me get some perspective on this!

I'm really sorry, but I can only see it getting worse.

Unless you can live up to his standards, or he takes on the bulk of the work he'll never be content with the house.

And you'll be miserable because I doubt anyone would live up to what he expects.

@Nanny0gg well I feel like this “project” is particularly big and stressful, and live in the hope that once things settle down, it’ll be easier to do the little things (like dishes and sheets) as I won’t have spent the whole day going through old documents going back 20 years.

That said, I do worry about this “new” side of him so I see what you’re saying.

My ex partner/bestie who I often stay with to help him out is like this.

It's like living with a drill sergeant- draining and annoying.

I think it's better if you have your own place somewhere @cluttercatastrophe rather than live at his place.

If you're at his place, his commands will have more authority and there's no opportunity for a break from it if you feel like one.

I can kind of see his point if you're unpacking boxes that have already been packed before you even move. It must be incredibly frustrating for him. Why are you doing that? Is there any more efficient way of working?

I get that it must be stressful for you but I kind of get your DP’s point. Do the essential stuff first (dishes, sheets) before you get to the boxes. Worst case scenario they just move with you. And it shouldn’t take that long to get through the clutter - why do you have documents going back 20 years or even need them? Surely you have your important documents in one place and the rest can just be binned? If it’s been in a box that long and you haven’t needed it in the last couple of years, just chuck it. You obviously haven’t missed it or else it would have been out of the box already. My mother does what you do and it’s honestly infuriating and stressful.

You have different strategies and although his might be more efficient for some things, there's probably some advantages to yours. In any case, your strategy works for YOU and YOUR needs. His works for HIM and HIS needs. If he can't adjust to include and respect your strategy, you're going to always feel that your needs are not being met.

For example, if you can't sort your documents before you move into his place, and then when you move in, he gets frustrated because your documents are taking up too much space, or he criticises how much time you spend sorting the same documents after you move in together. What's going to happen to your documents? Either you'll spend a long time stressed out because he's always complaining about how you sort them, or else he's going to want to throw them all out, or something like that. It leads to a feeling that you have no control over your life or your things.

This doesn’t sound that great to me, OP. I think you should think carefully about whether this is “behaviour” or whether he has an underlying negative narrative about you — and how irritating you are, or an underlying narrative about him — like for instance, if he’s the loveliest until you do something “wrong” and then he’s not very nice at all, it might be that he’s as happy as Larry as long as everything is going his way but if it’s not, he blames you. I read a helpful book about this type of behaviour called Why Does He Do That?

i agree with another PP that you should LAT — live apart together — or that you should have a real think about how selfish this guy is, and whether he puts his feelings (“I don’t like her packing, it makes me annoyed”) above your own (“wow he is being really cruel bc he doesn’t care if he hurts me, his own annoyance is more important to him”).

I really appreciate the comments saying they understand DP - it’s true that he’s also very frustrated by the situation, and I should be more understanding of that. It helps to step back and see “his side” rather than just thinking he’s a dick, so thank you.

That said, @aloris i think you are so right regarding the difference in approaches and I think you’ve hit the nail on the head about him not understanding and respecting my strategy. While I appreciate that I might need to do the same fror him, I think a lot of the frustration comes from him just shutting me down when I try to tell my side of the story.

@TBOM regarding the documents, you’re right, I don’t need them all. I’m originally from a very bureaucratic country where digitalization is still far off and you need paper copies of everything (sometimes going many years back) so I instinctively and obsessively keep every piece of paper even when I don’t need it. That is my problem though and I can see why DP isn’t all too sympathetic.

Are you a bit of a hoarder? Having 20 years worth of paperwork is quite extreme and I can understand his frustration if it’s taking you a whole day to sort one box. I’m not a neat freak by any means but if you’re spending 5 hours on a task I’d hope to see some difference for that amount of work eg papers shredded and binned, a reduction in the number of boxes as you sort through them etc.

It may be that he’s impatient or you’re inefficient or a combination of both but not being vaguely aligned on housekeeping is going to create tension. Only you know if he’s being unreasonable.

@Jellycatspyjamas you are right about the hoarding tendencies as well as the inefficiency; I am guilty on both counts and appreciate you holding me accountable.

But even though I’m an inefficient hoarder, I genuinely spend hours a day trying to get the job done, and I guess I just wish DP recognized the effort I’m putting in rather than just criticizing the (admittedly lacking) results.

My experience is that there are some types of paper it is worth keeping for decades. Not all. You need a plan to decide what to keep and what to throw away. When I sort, usually it is slow at first as I have to make a lot of decisions but then once I develop a set of rules I'm comfortable with, it goes much faster.

@cluttercatastrophe I know it’s hard. And that you want praise for effort. But if there are not enough positive results it’s hard to praise effort when you’re someone like your DP who is clearly results focussed. I’d also question whether you should be living together if you’re a hoarder and he’s a neat freak.

Paper worth keeping is really limited - stuff like birth certificates, marriage certificate, qualifications, and latest copy of anything like pension valuations, bank statements if you rely on paper copies of those, plus things like latest insurance policy details etc. You need a proper file for all of those - and when the newest version comes in you bin the previous. Not just add it it.

I can see his frustration, honestly, and I get a sense that you are far more disorganised and messy than you might even realise yourself.

When I try to explain that it can take me several hours to go through one box...

Several hours for one box? That's ridiculous.

You may have to admit that the two of you are no longer compatible.

It isn’t trivial

Some of it is just two very different people living together, but some of it is worrying obsessiveness and controlling-ness. Unless people make an effort to change this stuff it’s usually progressive.

If you can’t talk it out with him yourself, try some relationship counselling, but think seriously about this one. As it escalates imagine how he will be in 20 years, and if you are feeling useless and powerless now, what then?

I’m like you OP a neat freak would hate me, I’m clean and tidy on a day to day basis, but I have boxes and boxes of photos/journals/keepsakes/documents 😄

Thank you @TBOM - that actually explains it really well and puts things in perspective.

@aloris agreed, it’s coming up with a strategy that initially takes a lot of time. Once it’s established it goes quickly for me too; it’s thinking it through that takes a lot of time and mental effort.

Thank you to everyone else with constructive comments.

This isn't just about going through your clutter prior to moving, is it? It goes far deeper than that.

He is obsessively clean and tidy. Do you think you are going to have to put up with his incessant criticisms of you for decades? You've already said he makes you feel useless and powerless and you've been in tears over it. That really isn't how a relationship is supposed to be.

Putting aside all the detail about who’s strategy is best and advice on how you should/could do things differently I’d think about the real problem behind all this.

It sounds like he’s quite uptight as a person and you’re laid back. I had this dynamic with my ex and it really doesn’t work very well. They will always feel frustrated with you and you will end up feeling like you have a parent/child dynamic in your relationship. It’s not that either of you are right or wrong it’s just a compatibility issue. Generally people who are very regimented, efficient and rigid about cleanliness and how they like things done are driven bonkers by laid back people.

I’m not suggesting you just end it but I’d give a lot of thought to how you want to feel in your relationship and home environment. For me it was more important for me to feel happy and comfortable in the end rather than always trying and failing to live up to someone else’s standards. I used to believe that opposites attract, you can balance each other out and if you love someone then it’s enough but true compatibility and being similar in your approach and attitude etc is much more important than people realise. Incompatibility it the source of so many relationship problems.

It really isn't trivial.

You sound very mismatched.

Neither wrong but VERY mismatched.

You are in tears.

Not good at all.

I think you really need to reflect.

Opposites as personalities can be really exhausting.

Working well together with similar ways is often hugely conducive to a happy relaxed relationship.

If this is who he is, how does the next 20 years look like with this level of difference and conflict?

Have a think.

@cluttercatastrophe - that’s ok, I’ve grown up around this so understand so much about how hard it is to let go of clutter!

And I’ll offer a bit of perspective about him being a clean freak and you feeling the way you do, which I have immense sympathy for. I’m an absolute neat freak and a bit like your DP. I wasn’t always like that. It developed as a response to being around a procrastinating hoarder (and I don’t mean to sound unkind). I think it’s quite telling that you say when you lived together at his without all your clutter it worked fine but now it doesn’t. I don’t think you are totally incompatible. I think you just need to leave your junk behind and I know that’s easier said that done. But I bet a tiny bit of you felt liberated by not having your clutter around you back then. So what’s stopping you from just finding the papers that really matter and just binning the rest? You didn’t need it then. You don’t need it now. Think of it as stepping into a shiny and wondrous new future without all the worries of the past.

I forgot an essential bit - sorry! I think if you can get there you’ll find he also unclenches. He’s reacting to your patterned behaviour as much as the other way around. I find mess so so so stressful, it totally impedes my ability to relax. And I think it does the same to you from what you describe feeling - so you would both benefit from the clutter and mess being gone. I wish both of you well - you both sound really lovely and I hope you work out how to resolve this together. Would he have time to work through boxes together? Each document should take no more that 5 secs to get through. He maybe can help you?

I'm in the position @cluttercatastrophe , that my ex who's really into cleaning
got seriously, chronically ill (prgan failure and a severe skeletal condition.)

This means that I have to do all of it.... I finish one command and I'm given another one.

This is what you're risking ending up happening if you live out your life with him. I suppose either he'll get ill and you'll end up doing it (unless you're assertive) or you might get ill and then he'll be pissing and moaning about how the things aren't being done to his standard because you aren't well enough.

*organ failure (not self inflicted.)

Hi op. My parents are obsessive about cleaning and tidying and nothing can ever be out of place. It is so not relaxing.

I have adhd and it is hard to keep on top of cleaning and tidying. What I’ve found the best is to declutter often - get rid of anything that you don’t use or have duplicates of and have plenty of storage.

But you can’t have your partner treating you like a child, so you’ve both got to compromise in order for things to work.

My boyfriend has much lower standards of cleanliness and tidiness to me but I don’t want to treat him like a child and he isn’t lazy, he just doesn’t see it. So I let him get on with doing what he’s good at and I pick up where he isn’t and don’t sweat it when it isn’t up to my standards.