Not sure I can get past this

[TinyFrog]

No cheating or anything like that, but I’m worried a line has been crossed this morning that I’ll struggle to get past.

DH and I have been together for 8 years and have DD6. We have had a rough few years (who hasn’t lol) and the cost of living is putting a bit of a strain on things. DH can get in pretty bad moods, and so can I sometimes to be honest, but I feel the main difference is I recognise this pretty quickly (within an hour) and will apologise if I’ve been out of order.

When DH gets in these moods it can last for days and it’s like he is an entirely different person tbh. He will barely talk, is distant and will give very formal short replies. Whenever he manages to get himself out of it he is generally sorry and promises things will be different, and I feel silly even typing that because it never is is it?

For the last little while from my perspective whenever he is talking to DD it is only to tell her what to do or get her in trouble over something. I very much believe that you should pick your battles but he has a problem with so many things. He is always rushing her and honestly he’s sometimes just horrible. She does take her time to get ready, so if it’s me I will allow plenty of time so she can potter about, but DH will say ‘right I’m leaving now if you’re not ready in 2 minutes I’m leaving’ and he often threatens to leave as she’s getting ready. He has actually left without her on a few occasions. (This is just for walking the dog or nipping to the shop etc.)

Anyway last night after he’d been talking to her in that way all day I whispered when she was out of the room (we have had huge arguments before about me saying things in front of DD about him giving her a break etc so I did it in a way he would supposedly be happy with) ‘give her a bit of a break’ and he instantly got defensive and asked me how many times I had to ask her to do the thing she was away to do. It was twice. Apparently that’s not good enough and he wants a child who does exactly as they are asked first try all the time. He then got up and stormed off saying he didn’t want to play the game we were setting up to play.

Once DD was in bed I tried to talk to him. I even cracked a joke and he smiled when I said he was speaking to me like we were in a formal meeting. I tried to keep it light and asked how he was doing (I know he’s struggling with bereavement and terminal illness in the family) but I got nothing.

We have a general rule that DD is to stay in her bed/room until the sun comes up on her yoto. With the clocks changing DH and I had talked about how things would be a little out of whack for a wee while, so when DD got up ten minutes early and put the tv on to chill on the sofa I didn’t think much of it. DH got up just after her, turned off the telly, and started berating her about how she’d broken the rules. I followed shortly after and honestly I was really angry. I’m not entirely sure if my voice was raised if I’m honest but I said to him ‘are you serious? It’s ten minutes!’.

He went off on one, and for the first time, and I’m so sad and ashamed, we were shouting at each other in front of DD. I asked why it was so important for her to do exactly as he says all the time and he shouted in front of DD it’s because ‘I don’t want her to end up lazy like you!’. At that point I asked him to leave the room, he changed his tone to a quiet calm voice and started saying things like ‘why what are you going to do?’ and was telling me I shouldn’t be shouting.

Just so you have all info DH works ft, I work pt, do 90% of housework, and 90% of school runs extracurricular etc. I have been dealing with bereavements also, and am also undergoing various medical tests as I have been unwell on and off for a while.

I used to be in a verbally abusive relationship so this has been a huge trigger and it’s not somewhere I want to be back again. I am also devastated he said this in front of DD and if there is any real remorse from him I would like him to talk to DD about it and let her know it is never ok for someone to talk to her like that.

If you have read this far you are a saint. I’ve tried to give as much info as possible and know I’m not innocent in this situation either. I would just really appreciate any perspective anyone has. Thank you.

I hate MN when people just automatically say 'leave him', 'throw him out' etc over the most tiniest thing but I think in this case you seriously should just ask him to leave. His behaviour is abusive, towards both you and your DD. TBH, I can't believe you've let him treat your DD so badly for so long (I'm assuming DD is not his but even if he was dad, I still wouldn't allow this behaviour). Your DD must be so confused and permanently walking around him on eggshells.
Please ask him to leave, even its just a temporary measure until he gets himself some help/counselling etc. This is not a good environment for either of you but you're an adult and can choose to be with an abusive prick, but your DD shouldn't have to. Put her first and do the right thing

I'm assuming DD is not his

If they’ve been together 8 years and the 6 year old DD is not his, there are bigger issues in the relationship than the ones the OP mentions!

@Seekandyeshallfind thanks for replying. DD is his but you’re right, that doesn’t make it any better. And I feel so ashamed it’s gotten to this point. I think because I was in a very obviously verbally abusive relationship in the past I have let things go that I absolutely shouldn’t have. I have suggested counselling before but he thinks it’s a load of rubbish.

What do I do if he refuses to leave? His dad lives close and has spare rooms. My sister also lives close but doesn’t have room and when we’ve argued before he’s told me to go to hers and leave DD with him (I never have left), but I obviously wouldn’t leave DD with him.

Is it worth writing him a letter or email? Put everything down in a very dispassionate way, keep all emotion out of it.

Back up your views re child rearing, eg children need telling more than once etc, by reading up on educational development etc.

Depending on how he receives it you maybe able to go on to how he deals with his bad moods etc.

I am literally just back from my therapist on how to deal with my bullying abusive STBXH. She was telling me about ACT and the choice point. He sounds like he needs counselling/therapy, but just like my husband thinks it’s rubbish.

You have every right to ask him to leave but I don’t know what you do if he won’t, unless you can show him there is another way - honest communication and therapy.

It's just abuse in a different outfit.
You know I think, that you don't have to live like this - and while you might tolerate it, now DD is getting his anger as well.

Time to talk to a solicitor.
For what it's worth, I would 100% have my sister and her DD to stay in a situation like this even if I had no space - but before you do leave, just check with a solicitor first in case it affects things.

Apologies for the mistake in assuming DD was not his. My oversight completely.
I'm really not sure what you'd do if he refused to leave. Instead of asking him to leave in anger or frustration, try and plan what you want to say in a calm and rational way, voice it a way that you are worried for both his emotional state (during to the exceptional circumstances you're all under), your DD and the future of your family overall. Suggest that he needs some help, maybe see his GP, ask for counselling and that it would be a temporary measure until things are on a more stable for you all. If he refuses, I can only suggest you both leave and then go through the legal route, see a solicitor. You are trying to protect your daughter so you leaving the jome and leaving her there is not an option.

OP, I would contact Refuge or Women's Aid if you have nowhere to go. His behaviour really isn't OK. You and DD need at least a break from him. Is there any chance he'd improve if you and she left for a while?

Could you try writing to him, as Sleepycats says, try and get him to communicate more calmly? Get him to see why his attitude to child-rearing isn't working, and how he could make all of you including himself happier?

He needs to make serious commitments to change if you are to stay with him. Otherwise, if he calls you lazy now, he's not going to improve even if you pick up the other 10% of all the housework, childcare and life admin. And teach DD to curtsey when he nags at her.

You have gone from one previous verbally abusive relationship into another similar abusive relationship with your now H. It's a not uncommon scenario. Your boundaries, already weakened by previous abuse, are being further got at by your now. You need to enrol yourself also onto the Freedom Programme as this is for those who have been in abusive relationships previously.

The only acceptable level of abuse in a relationship is NONE and that is one relationship lesson your DD now needs to be taught by you. She cannot afford to see you get abused on a daily basis by your dad; show her properly that the only acceptable level of abuse in a relationship is none. You are also teaching her about relationships and how they work; what do you want to teach her about relationships and what is she learning here?. What did you learn about relationships yourself from your parents when growing up?.

Your relationship with him anyway is over because of the abuse he metes out to you and in turn your DD. Abuse is not about communication or a perceived lack of, it's about power and control and this man wants absolute both over you and she. This man has already dismissed counselling as a lot of old rubbish and he will never be counselled. Such men rarely if ever respond to any form of counselling in any case and he would likely needs years of therapy.

If you are in England I would contact Womens Aid and or your local domestic violence support service and plan your exit from this marriage with due care and attention. You need to be seeing a Solicitor asap re separation and divorce; knowledge here is power. He is not going to make it at all easy for you to leave him and will likely make this whole process as protracted and difficult as possible for you as "punishment" for having the gall to leave him, in his head he is this most perfect of specimens. But the freedom you will have on the other side will be worth it.

Do read "Why does he do that?" by Lundy Bancroft and the Verbally Abusive Relationship by Patricia Evans.

Abuse is not a relationship problem. It's also not about communication or a perceived lack of.

Joint counselling is not recommended where there is abuse of any type within the relationship.

I think a letters a good idea, thank you.

The best of it is I actually know a lot about child development as I was training to be a counsellor (stopped due to bereavements not sure if I’ll go back) and up until recently, when it caused a huge argument, I would always have DDs back in the moment. Initially I asked DH to take me seriously as I had literally studied this stuff, he said ok, but after a while said ‘it was just someone’s opinion’.

I will suggest counselling again, especially as he gets it through work for free, but not to try and save this or anything, just because he genuinely needs it.

@ItsaMetalBand we’re in a private let so as far as I know I don’t think that would affect anything but will double check. And yes you’re right my sister would have us in a heartbeat.

And thank you to everyone else for all of the advice and information. I am finding it incredibly helpful. I will ask him to leave when he gets in from work and take it from there.

"I will suggest counselling again, especially as he gets it through work for free, but not to try and save this or anything, just because he genuinely needs it"

He may genuinely need it as you say but it does not follow that he will attend just because you've asked him to do so. He's already dismissed counselling as a lot of old rubbish and as I've mentioned before such types need years of therapy and even then it's not always successful. He won't likely take any real notice of any letter you write and will dismiss it. Like practically all abusers he's blaming you, his woman aka possession, for everything that has gone wrong in his life. It's always someone else's fault and never their own in their eyes. Such men too hate women and all of them as well.

Your best course of action here is to save you and your child by planning your exit from this marriage and seeking support for your own self in the shape of Womens Aid and a Solicitor.

He has refused to leave which I expected. He is being overly nice to DD. I genuinely don’t recognise the person he is or the way he’s talking to me (he’s not even angry or anything and to an outsider it would be seen as calm) and he’s showing no remorse other than saying he is sorry for what he said. But there’s no recognition of the weight of this and everything else.

DD and I are going to my sisters.

I think you're making the right decision OP. It might give him the jolt he needs to get some help or give you the jolt needed to realise that you and DD can't live life like this any more. I wish you all the best

@Seekandyeshallfind Thank you, truly appreciate your words right now, and everyone else’s input.

For what it's worth, I think you're making the right decision as well.

Your DD needs you to protect her here and to model what is / is not acceptable.

You sound very strong and level headed.

You should be proud of yourself tonight, especially having come from a previous abusive relationship.

Well done OP ♥️

@WhiskeyMakesMeFrisky Thank you :) I know it’s one of those things that feels horrible and really rough for now, but at some point I’ll be able to look back and say life is better now.

I'm not condoning his behaviour OP. However, I can see why he's lost his shit with the dynamic you guys have in your house. It does come across like it's you and dd vs him, mixed in with dd not listening and taking so long to get ready.

I'd personally sit and talk about restoring the dynamic to you and him being the parents and dd being the child in this. Make some rules that you both stick too with parenting dd. Get some charts up and do something positive about dd listening, praise her, marble in the jar, etc. If you have done education in child development you would know boundaries and positive parenting together works well.

I do think it's important dc learn to listen and do what they've been told to do. The approach your husband is taking isn't the right one but you could pull together on this and sort it out.

Also he is right about the theories being someone elses ideas. That's what theories are and they change over the years with different and hypothesis. They're not facts. You and your dp have to find your own way and own style of parenting your dd. If you go in with you know best because you've studied counselling then you've invalidated his input and taken him out of the equation which could lead to him feeling pretty resentful and blowing up.

At the point where his tone changed he was absolutely playing for an audience he wants the neighbours to hear you going off on him more than himngoing off on you

Ex used to do similar would abuse me in a conversational tone and if I hit the roof that's all people would hear sadly all they heard was me repeating what he said so tactic number two was dropping "bombs" and walking away of course sometimes I followed him and he got me publicly having a go at him while he looked all doe eyed innocent

@TheMorigoul
You have made a few assumptions. DD listens and does as she’s asked straight away probably 80% of the time. I think that’s very reasonable for her age. She has boundaries, and faces consequences. My husbands consequences of giving no notice and then leaving seem unfair, at least to me. And we had discussed how we would give leeway due to the clocks changing in this instance.

I have also never had an I know better attitude, and had to practically beg DH to consider my perspective, which was brief anyway. He has a complex about people thinking they are better than him however, and that is probably how he took it.

I have tried to communicate with him in a myriad of different ways, always taking onboard what he has said about how I should bring a topic to him. None of it makes a difference.

And it will always be us vs him when it comes to him being completely unreasonable. That will never change and I am ok with that. I’ll give you an example. DH was shouting at DD for something she had said. He had actually misheard her as she was talking to me. I came down calmly and quietly stating he’d picked it up wrong. Not good enough, he continued to berate her anyway and then went on to have a go at me as I had no right interrupting. Please, tell me, what would you do?

At that point I tried my best to calm down and told him I knew what he was doing and continued to ask him to leave. It’s so horrible to witness the purposeful sudden change of attitude.

Forgot to name change on my last post, oh well!

@TheMorigoul And to clarify as well, she doesn’t take an age to get ready, we’re talking 10 mins, which seems ok to me when you’ve had no notice. It would be 5 minutes with help but he never does this and thinks she should be able to do it all on her own much quicker. Because she is often stressed in those situations it makes her take longer too as she’ll be panicking and flapping. And another question, what would your response to getting ready be if someone simply said ‘get dressed now’ with no other input or explanation, with continuations of ‘because I said so’ when asked why? This is something else he likes to do.

What I would do is speak to him and try a reset. I wouldn't stay forever but I would try my best to get us both on the same page. Otherwise you split up, the norm is now 40/60 - 50/50 and he'll carry on be even worse without you. So I would change the dynamic and I wouldn't tell him he's wrong to do what he's doing in front of dd and that is what (imo) is creating the you and dd vs him and is making the situation worse. Those conversations need to be between you both and not in the moment and not in earshot of dd.

I do believe in being an united front in front of dc and I don't think adding additional conflict into a situation in front of dd is going to be good for her. Sorry to say it as you believe you are justified in this, but dc won't hear that from you. They will blame themselves for their parents shouting at each other. That situation should have been handled out of your dds earshot. Don't let her grow up in the middle and feeling the reason for your conflict.

Your dp is finding parenting a 6yr old who doesn't listen to him a challenge. You say 80% but you've given quite a few examples. Find a middle ground where you're both on the same parenting page. This would be wise to do whether you split up or not. Your dd needs consistency and boundaries (like all dc, I'm not saying your dd is a badly behaved child) and if you're able to help your dp in this then your dd will do much better whether you stay together or not.

To answer your question, if I told my dc when they were that age to get dressed they would have got dressed but I was a single mum and I had to have a strict routine. There wasn't time for asking why and faffing about as I had to get them to the childminders or breakfast club for 7.30. I'm not saying either way is right or wrong. What I'm saying is you need to become a team with your dp either as a couple or as a coparent if you split up.