Not sure I can get past this

[TinyFrog]

No cheating or anything like that, but I’m worried a line has been crossed this morning that I’ll struggle to get past.

DH and I have been together for 8 years and have DD6. We have had a rough few years (who hasn’t lol) and the cost of living is putting a bit of a strain on things. DH can get in pretty bad moods, and so can I sometimes to be honest, but I feel the main difference is I recognise this pretty quickly (within an hour) and will apologise if I’ve been out of order.

When DH gets in these moods it can last for days and it’s like he is an entirely different person tbh. He will barely talk, is distant and will give very formal short replies. Whenever he manages to get himself out of it he is generally sorry and promises things will be different, and I feel silly even typing that because it never is is it?

For the last little while from my perspective whenever he is talking to DD it is only to tell her what to do or get her in trouble over something. I very much believe that you should pick your battles but he has a problem with so many things. He is always rushing her and honestly he’s sometimes just horrible. She does take her time to get ready, so if it’s me I will allow plenty of time so she can potter about, but DH will say ‘right I’m leaving now if you’re not ready in 2 minutes I’m leaving’ and he often threatens to leave as she’s getting ready. He has actually left without her on a few occasions. (This is just for walking the dog or nipping to the shop etc.)

Anyway last night after he’d been talking to her in that way all day I whispered when she was out of the room (we have had huge arguments before about me saying things in front of DD about him giving her a break etc so I did it in a way he would supposedly be happy with) ‘give her a bit of a break’ and he instantly got defensive and asked me how many times I had to ask her to do the thing she was away to do. It was twice. Apparently that’s not good enough and he wants a child who does exactly as they are asked first try all the time. He then got up and stormed off saying he didn’t want to play the game we were setting up to play.

Once DD was in bed I tried to talk to him. I even cracked a joke and he smiled when I said he was speaking to me like we were in a formal meeting. I tried to keep it light and asked how he was doing (I know he’s struggling with bereavement and terminal illness in the family) but I got nothing.

We have a general rule that DD is to stay in her bed/room until the sun comes up on her yoto. With the clocks changing DH and I had talked about how things would be a little out of whack for a wee while, so when DD got up ten minutes early and put the tv on to chill on the sofa I didn’t think much of it. DH got up just after her, turned off the telly, and started berating her about how she’d broken the rules. I followed shortly after and honestly I was really angry. I’m not entirely sure if my voice was raised if I’m honest but I said to him ‘are you serious? It’s ten minutes!’.

He went off on one, and for the first time, and I’m so sad and ashamed, we were shouting at each other in front of DD. I asked why it was so important for her to do exactly as he says all the time and he shouted in front of DD it’s because ‘I don’t want her to end up lazy like you!’. At that point I asked him to leave the room, he changed his tone to a quiet calm voice and started saying things like ‘why what are you going to do?’ and was telling me I shouldn’t be shouting.

Just so you have all info DH works ft, I work pt, do 90% of housework, and 90% of school runs extracurricular etc. I have been dealing with bereavements also, and am also undergoing various medical tests as I have been unwell on and off for a while.

I used to be in a verbally abusive relationship so this has been a huge trigger and it’s not somewhere I want to be back again. I am also devastated he said this in front of DD and if there is any real remorse from him I would like him to talk to DD about it and let her know it is never ok for someone to talk to her like that.

If you have read this far you are a saint. I’ve tried to give as much info as possible and know I’m not innocent in this situation either. I would just really appreciate any perspective anyone has. Thank you.

I totally know what you’re saying, and in the instance when he’d misheard her I didn’t expect him to be angry, I very normally just stated he’d misheard. And DD was already at this point trying to clarify she hadn’t said what he thought but he was calling her a liar. I just don’t think under any circumstances I wouldn’t try to clear that up, not starting, and not expecting an argument.

After that instance I have been very conscious of not creating that situation again, and so have not said anything in front of DD. It doesn’t make a difference. Like it really doesn’t, and I am honestly starting to feel like he doesn’t see me as an equal human being.

I don’t know if what I have said is ‘quite a few examples’. When she is asked to get ready, she gets ready. It takes longer than DH wants is the problem mainly. And with her getting up ten minutes early I genuinely don’t see an issue with that as her being out of whack due to clocks changing? And the other example I have was I had to ask her twice to do something.

Unfortunately we have had a lot of those reset conversations. We leave them on the same page. Things stay nice for a few days and then his behaviour becomes nastier than before each time.

I fear there is no reasoning. He has previously threatened me with going for full custody etc. He is petty, and when he is in that frame of mind he is blind to everything else.

I know you are trying to help, and apologies for writing you a novel but today I am heart broken and angry. I do not recognise DH anymore, and I am finding that honestly scary.

@TheMorigoul I had one of those 'oh, it's just an opinion' husbands. You do realise that what we now know about child development is based on research, it isn't just some random making things up? OP's DD sounds like a perfectly normal 6 year old. OP's 'quite a few examples' are hardly all going to have occurred in the space of half an hour, are they?

You're wrong about always needing to provide a united front. When one parent is manifestly unreasonable, that's negligent parenting.

@TinyFrog I feel very strongly that this man does not love you. The way he told your DD that he didn't want her to end up 'lazy like mummy' is downright abusive - especially when you work p/t and do 90% of the house stuff. He isn't a good person or a good parent.

Are you a qualified family counsellor @TheMorigoul? OP has quite blatantly said she has tried to talk to DH about this problem repeatedly in private but his behaviour continues and it looks like he feels like he's doing nothing wrong. What is OP to do to put on a united front If he won't change his attitude or behaviour and believes he's 100% in the right? Does OP back him 100% in front of DC? Yes, maybe it should not have spilled over into an argument in front of DC but you're living in cloud cuckoo land if you think no child ever sees their parents argue now and then.
Advocating that they stay togerher and OP capitulates to DH's disciplinary ways just to keep harmony, then he is never going to change and circumstances are going to get worse, not better.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion,I know, but you appear to be victim blaming (both mum and child are victims here) and trying to make out that OP is not only being unsupportive of DH but should agree with his point of view in everything he says or does. I think following your advice will only worsen the situation, not male it better

I feel this too if I’m honest, and I would even consider taking it one step further as I suspect he may just have a general disdain for all women.

I am really struggling right now. I am back home as DH is at work and DD is now unwell. We slept horribly too as my sister snores incredibly loud and DD wet the bed (which is totally understandable given the circumstances). I have written him a message explaining a few things and asking him if he would consider leaving tonight so we can have some space.

I'm not victim blaming. I'm giving my advice and opinions. Whether OP splits up or stays with him they will have to get on the same page or there will be continued inconsistencies for the dd.

Theories are opinions not facts. Attachment theory for example has been disproved time and time again, there are issues how evidence was left out for the theory to work. Each new generation comes up with different ideas that disproves previous theories before. It's good to be critical of theories and open to new ones.

Tbh my ex always had and still does, have my back with our now older teen dc, even if I've been unreasonable. I also give the same back. Even if I don't like something he's done or something he's said I tell my dc that in his house it's up to him. If I've (rarely as I'm not a shouter) shouted at dc he would have told them off again for pushing me to that point. My dc are very secure and confident YP and I'm sure that being an united front has helped with that. He's also been massively unreasonable at times but I've bitten my lip and the pay off worked.

OP I'm not advising you to stay or go. It's not a decision you should take from an internet chat. If you leave him on MN say so then you may regret it. You need to work out yourself whether you want to stay or go so the decision is yours. If you feel you've tried everything and you can leave knowing you did what you could and you'll be happier than leave. But you're always going to be sharing dd with this man.

FW I think the 10 minute thing is petty AF. Or even having a time. As long as they're not up at stupid oclock in the morning why does it matter if dd gets up and watches tv quietly 🤷‍♀️

I used to be in a verbally abusive relationship so this has been a huge trigger
Dear OP - you still are.
ANYBODY would be upset by the onslaught of verbal abuse your H dishes out.
You don't need to minimise his behaviour or deny your experience like this. He has upset you - you are reasonable to feel upset - it's not because you are 'triggered' - it's because he is upsetting.

he instantly got defensive and asked me how many times I had to ask her to do the thing she was away to do. It was twice. Apparently that’s not good enough and he wants a child who does exactly as they are asked first try all the time.
No no no no no.
She is SIX. She is not a robot.
He, however, is a despot.
www.amazon.co.uk/Living-Dominator-About-Freedom-Programme/dp/0955882702

DD got up ten minutes early and put the tv on to chill on the sofa I didn’t think much of it. DH got up just after her, turned off the telly, and started berating her about how she’d broken the rules. I followed shortly after and honestly I was really angry. I’m not entirely sure if my voice was raised if I’m honest but I said to him ‘are you serious? It’s ten minutes!’.

He went off on one, and for the first time, and I’m so sad and ashamed, we were shouting at each other in front of DD. I asked why it was so important for her to do exactly as he says all the time and he shouted in front of DD
I'm so sorry you & DD had to endure this.
He is a tyrant & a bully & neither of you should have to live like this. Or with him.

I've read your posts as far as seeing you can at least get some respite at your sister's - I hope you can arrange this soon & will catch up to find out.

Nothing to add. Just to say I admire you and wish other mothers would put their dcs first as you have.

I would advise against.

Don't write him a letter. he cannot hear your words when spoken he won't hear them when written. He is a man who thinks he is always in the right & must be instantly obeyed. he will not take kindly to being - as he will see it - instructed by mail.

DO NOT ENTER COUNSELLING WITH HIM.
Professional therapists advice very strongly against couples counselling, when one of the couple is abusive. He will manipulate the counsellor, use the sessions to impose his will, make the entire session about all your 'failings' & imagine that it is up to him to direct you & the counsellor how to bend his wife into being compliant to his will.

just because he genuinely needs it.
If he needs or wants counselling, he can arrange it himself.
Counselling does not stop abusive men from being abusing.
It does not stop controlling men from being controlling.
It does not stop angry men from being angry.
All it does is open you to more manipulation - as per paragraph above - & give them an instant get Out Of Jail Free card to keep doing exactly what they want.
You would get constant refrains of "but my therapist says" "but my poor childhood means I can't help it & you have to support me when I act out" & "my therapist says it's your fault because ..."
It will all be self-serving bullshit.

Please don't "get past this." As Attila the Meerkat has said, this is clearly another abusive relationship. I'm pretty sure you have "got past" plenty of things in the past, and if your instinct is to draw a line at this point, then that's for very good reason. There is no way of improving things with a man like this because it's not about you expressing things more clearly to him. He enjoys the power he has over you both, and therefore prefers to keep you confused and anxious.

I'm so sorry OP, the only way it out. You've done it before and you can do it again.

It's hard to unlearn the patterns we fall into with abusive relationships but practice makes perfect, I promise you!

@TheMorigoul if you honestly think that the research around child development is 'just theory' because it hasn't been 'proven as fact' (it can't be, you would not get ethical approval for the kind of research it would take, and rightly so) then you are 1) very naive and 2) saying that any old idea about parenting is as good as any other.

You've just admitted to supporting your ex's unreasonableness towards your DC. They've managed to get through it without significant damage - congratulations, you've been lucky.

can see why he's lost his shit with the dynamic you guys have in your house. It does come across like it's you and dd vs him, mixed in with dd not listening and taking so long to get ready.
Newsflash - 6 year olds don't always do what they are asked immediately.
It's the parents' job to negotiate that & expect a long learning process as the child matures enough to respond to cues, to organise themselves, & to understand the importance of what's being asked.
Children don't get to learn this from parents who shout at them, & who can only respond to normal child behaviour by demanding instant, unquestioning obedience.

Make some rules that you both stick too with parenting dd.
Good luck with that. This man only respects his own rules. He won't accept any deviation from his own unreasonable diktats.

you could pull together on this and sort it out.
What makes you think this man will 'pull together' with anyone?
OP has been trying to ameliorate & communicate for years. He won't, so it cannot get sorted out.
It's his way or the highway. There's no negotiating or shared parenting with that attitude.

If you go in with you know best because you've studied counselling then you've invalidated his input and taken him out of the equation which could lead to him feeling pretty resentful and blowing up.
www.banyantherapy.com/darvo/
He blows up because he's a controlling bastard who knows that he can cow his wife & child into compliance by displaying anger.
Not because OP is trying to explain a better way than shouting at a 6 year old to him.
Reasonable people would have a conversation about OP's views/knowledge. Not blow up about it.

@CuriousMama Thank you, I am trying my best, and will just try to keep focus on things being better for me and DD in the future.

@KettrickenSmiled Thank you for your advice. I don’t think I would consider couples therapy anyway tbh. I have had some on my own and found it endlessly helpful to talk through bereavement etc. This was before things got so bad within the relationship but when finances allow I think I could really do with some more. And I will check out that book as someone else recommended also I think.

Thank you @Alcemeg , it feels very difficult just now, and when I left my previous relationship it was one of the easiest things I’ve ever done (eventually), but did feel much more straight forward as we weren’t married and there were no children. But I do hope for a brighter future. And I really hope I have learned from experience this time. This one was a slow burner but when I look back of course there were red flags!

Are you the tenant OP? If so, perhaps you can get him to leave and you and DD stay there? You need practical support - advice from Womens Aid? and legal advice. You are right to break out of this situation and relationship now before further escalation that would affect you and DD further. Hope you can see a solicitor soon to explore your options. Take care, hugs to you and DD, and good luck.

What I would do is speak to him and try a reset. I wouldn't stay forever but I would try my best to get us both on the same page.
But OP has been doing just this @TheMorigoul.
For years.
There is no 'being on the same page' with an angry & controlling man - there is only walking on eggshells, & trying to stave off the next outburst.

Otherwise you split up, the norm is now 40/60 - 50/50 and he'll carry on be even worse without you. So I would change the dynamic and I wouldn't tell him he's wrong to do what he's doing in front of dd and that is what (imo) is creating the you and dd vs him and is making the situation worse. Those conversations need to be between you both and not in the moment and not in earshot of dd.
So?
The norm would then be that for at least 50% of the time, DD gets to live in a home where she is not being shouted at, bullied, & scared.
And I doubt this man is going to be much more than a Disney dad. he clearly doesn't enjoy parenting.

I do believe in being an united front in front of dc and I don't think adding additional conflict into a situation in front of dd is going to be good for her.
When he stared berating DD & would not stop, it was already in front of her. How else could OP have played it? Would you seriously let your own child be shouted at & not intervene? Becauae "united front"? There IS no front to unite when some bastard is losing his rag with your child.

Sorry to say it as you believe you are justified in this, but dc won't hear that from you. They will blame themselves for their parents shouting at each other. That situation should have been handled out of your dds earshot. Don't let her grow up in the middle and feeling the reason for your conflict.
It was already in DD's earshot. Her father was shouting at her. For getting up - 10 minutes early! It's inexcusable. It required direct & immediate intervention.

Your dp is finding parenting a 6yr old who doesn't listen to him a challenge.
So does every parent. No 6 year old listens & obeys immediately, every time.

if you're able to help your dp in this then your dd will do much better whether you stay together or not.
There is no helping a man who demands obedience, shouts when he doesn't get it, & refuses to consider alternatives. It is not OP's job to appease this bully - it's her job to get herself & DD away from under his roof.

You're doing brilliantly OP. I think once the scales fall from the eyes, there's no looking back. Good luck! Happier, healthier times lie ahead, as you know. Getting there is another matter, but you will. xxx

It’s a joint tenancy in both of our names. Previously when we have had a ‘reset’ convo we had discussed the idea that this would remain DDs home (it was my idea granted but he did agree) and we would share our time between here and relatives when not with DD splitting the bills if we were to break up. This wouldn’t be a long term solution of course, and actually I don’t think he really wants either of us to have it so will probably do whatever he can in his power to make that happen.

My head is a mess but I will start to get in touch with people on Monday. Thank you :)

@Alcemeg Thank you, it feels incredibly hard right now but I know that’s not forever.

@TinyFrog What was his upbringing like?

I understand your fear as it seems his "mask" has dropped. The likeihood is that as your daughter has grown she is no longer as compliant as she was when a baby/toddler, added to this you have become more confident in supporting her development, allowing some reasonable choices. These factors will reduce his sense of control which is why he needs to dominate and why it's escalating.

As others mention, this isn't about communication but his need for control and his sense of entitlement. You and your daughter are not equal to him so when he makes a demand it should just happen, no pushback or attempt to negotiate.

2 useful books, Why does he do that and Patricia Evans "the verbally abusive Relationship" Both will help you understand the dynamics at play. Ex was very similar, he went to counselling for a year. It made it way worse because he wasn't able to give genuine insight into his behaviour so presented himself as a victim who was constantly undermined.

Usually these individuals are really good at showing the world a different side..probadly the one you fell for.

Please help…
I am leaving a relationship. Lived together for two years, child together. I didn’t know it was abusive, but things have gotten worse and now I see it.

At worst I was made of leave, and not allowed to take our child who was breastfed. No judgment please. I had nowhere to go, it’s his house and I didn’t want her to witness the anger had I tried to take her. I sought advice and got back within days. The police couldn’t help as it was civil.

I was also told me leave a week before having her when I slept in my old empty house.
I’ve been shoved twice, he had smashed a picture, thrown my thighs out, shouted at me and told to die, my eldest daughter (not his) isn’t allowed in the house. I’ve been threatened with losing my child and him taking me to court. Now I’ve had the key taken and his mum comes to let me out as he doesn’t trust me. I’m only allowed back when he is home.

I know I’ve been stupid, but I desperately wanted us to work and have a family, but now I see it was there all along.

It is becoming harder and harder. He is using the mental health card against me and saying he’s getting a solicitor then getting angry when I say we will go to court. I rely on his family so that I can work, but they blame me for it all and say I’m lying. I feel attacked by then all and at my lowest.

I have came back after an argument because I didn’t agree or doing 5/2 days as I think 3/4 days are better mwhere he said I might not get back in to find his mam and sister here and they are sleeping over. There is so much conflict.

I’m terrified that he will get full custody.tonight he said he will tell them I’ve attacked him and he didn’t shove me but defended himself. He said any texts weren’t sent by him, but he lets friends use his phone.

i just need support, advice and reassurance please

@Oldermum80 you need to get in touch with woman's aid and leave secretly to a refuge.

How are u op

I do believe in being an united front in front of dc

@TheMorigoul My mum believed this but it just meant she never stood up for me when my dad was treating me badly. It could've damaged my relationship with her permanently. Thankfully she left him when I was in my late teens and then she was able to be the caring person she really was, rather than the cold person she was in her marriage.

She stuck up for me with him once in my whole childhood, and I remember it very fondly. It'dve been nice if it'd been a regular thing. Apparently she didn't even say anything to him in private about how he acted, though.

you're living in cloud cuckoo land if you think no child ever sees their parents argue now and then.

@Seekandyeshallfind I didn't, but it wasn't necessarily a good thing that they never argued, at least in front of us. Sometimes confrontation/disagreement is important and it can be useful to see that modelled. As it is, I tend to just freeze and do nothing if someone says/does something to me that isn't ok. It's not like the lack of disagreements/arguments meant they had the perfect marriage- they split up eventually when she couldn't put up with him anymore.

Yes, how are you @TinyFrog ?

Just spotted the thread hasn't been updated for a bit.

@Oldermum80 You'll get more replies about your situation if you make your own thread. xx