When does not wanting sex become withholding sex?

[WarrickDavisAsPlates]

Im not really sure how to phrase the question, but over the years on mumsnet I've seen a lot of threads about mismatched sex drives/ loss of sex drive and I've seen people say that "you shouldn't withhold sex" or that it's even cruel to withhold sex.

However, I was always under the impression that no one should be forced, or feel under pressure, to have sex that they don't want to have.

I can't get these two opposing ideas to make sense in my mind. How can someone not feel forced to have sex when they don't want to without being cruel and withholding it?

Maybe I'm being too black and white about it (sometimes I can be) but at what point does not wanting to have sex become withholding sex? Also, how many people would want to have sex with their partners knowing that they were only enduring it for your sake and didn't want it at all?

Withholding sex is using sex as a reward or punishment.

Not wanting sex is just that and perfectly natural and normal.

As poster above said - withholding is and active act of manipulation. Not wanting sex if fine and nobody should force themselves into sex they don't want.

Yes, exactly.

But if you find that you never, or almost never, want sex, then you need to re-evaluate your relationship, as its unfair to demand your partner be celibate forever.

Yes I agree - if you withhold anything it is a deliberate act designed to punish and/or control. Very much about power

I think when someone doesnt want it that is fine but there should be open and honest communication with a partner about why, is there anything that can be done (for example is it hormonal and linked to the menopause, trauma due to birth etc) lack of support etc. And make honest and open decisions from there.

Which may include the relationship being over.

I think withholding sex would be saying you would have sex in exchange for goods or tasks in a very simplified form, such as saying ‘if you buy me x item or take me to y place, then sex will happen. If you don’t then there won’t be any sex’

of course that’s different to feelings taken for granted, that someone doesn’t pull their weight around the house or it’s their turn to do the dishes and it’s left to you to do again, then I could understand someone feeling resentful and not particularly amorous towards someone.

mismatched sex drives is not unusual in a long term relationship, communication is the biggest tool we have though as humans.

This.
Plus a refusal to work on that side of the relationship.

In my view, it is a communication issue.

If you have a small baby or an illness that causes issues, you are not "withholding". Most couples in healthy relationships should be able to weather that without long term issues - what you are saying is that you would really like to get back to it, but you can't right now.

I don't think that the "withholding" is so much the sex, but the information - if you go off sex and don't discuss it, you make excuses but without indicating whether things might change etc.

Mismatched sex drives are big issues for some couples, but many do have less sex than they might ideally want, temporarily or permanently because it's a trade off they are willing to make for their partner. What is unacceptable is withdrawing from discussion about it. Or lacking empathy for someone who wishes to connect with their partner and is constantly rebuffed.

You should always choose what is right for you in the first place.

Thank you, I suppose when I've been reading MN threads maybe the nuances have been lost on me.

I think the conversation about lack of sex in relationships can be a difficult one to have as you worry about hurting your partners feelings, so maybe the withholding of a conversation or finding excuses is more difficult to see, unlike a blatant "buy me jewelry or I won't shag you" type of withholding.

I suppose I'd fall in to the category of someone who lacks empathy for the rebuffed partner as I'd probably feel the partner who is being expected to have unwanted sex has it worse.

I wonder what a compromise would be in that case? If one wants sex and the other doesn't, there's not really a middle ground so who wins in that case?

I guess a lot of people need certain things to be in place for them to want to have sex, they need to feel safe, respected, loved. Not wanting to have sex because you are not feeling those things is understandable but your OH may not see it that way. In their opinion they might think their behaviour is perfectly fine and that you're just with holding sex. Neither side might feel like they are being listened to or understood. So I think a lot depends on what side you're coming from. But generally I'd guess there were a lot of other issues in the relationship.

Nobody wins, it's just time to think about ending the relationship if your views are so different.

You are upset by having sex, they are upset by not. Just because you don't feel it doesn't mean that rejection and lack of intimacy doesn't hurt, or do damage. But that also doesn't mean you have sex you don't want. It's just time to discuss whether it's the end of the relationship.

If you love each other its definitely possible to fond middle ground. I would be happy with sex once a week, DH wants to every day..
We found a compromise and it happens 2-3x a week. Im not always fully into it myself, but i love DH and it doesnt feel forced to me because of that. I do something nice for him and i think of it like giving a massage or something thats just for him and not necessarily for me too.
If i really dont feel like it then i say so and DH leaves me alone without sulking. Its happened that i didnt feel like it for a week and there was no change in DHs behaviour.
Thats key for me basically. If he started sulking during a dry spell that would be very unattractive. But in return we dont have any long dry spells.

I think if you just never wanna have sex then you should find out why and come clean with your partner so that they can decide whether they wanna stay or not.

I agree with this

It's got to be about talking and compromise. If one doesn't ever want it and one wants it once a week then it won't worn

Work

If you don't want sex then do not have sex. Enthusiastic desire is the absolute minimum level of consent, you are quite right to feel uncomfortable with the idea that anyone would want to have sex with someone who was halfhearted or unwilling. That's a rapist mentality and who would want to be in any kind of relationship with someone who could think that way?

Witholding sex would be if you were quite willing and have the libido and desire to have sex but consciously refuse as a means to punish or control. That's abusive too.

Relationships are not just about sex and if you are both ok to continue as you are then it doesn't have to be the end. But if your desires are incompatible and the difference can't be resolved that might mean it's over. You have to talk.

@WarrickDavisAsPlates

The compromise, if one wants sex and one doesn't is not to just lie back, but:

• to discuss why and be open as to whether it is permanent or whether there are steps you might take, whether together or separately
• to accept that the other partner might consider it a deal breaker in a long term relationship.

By the way, by empathy, I just mean try to understand where your partner is coming from. Empathising does not mean their desire to have sex trumps yours not to. But you probably should understand and connect with why it matters so much to them - is it a biological urge that they are finding hard to manage, is it a need for love, reassurance and connection, to feel desired etc. That's what being a couple is, surely? The alternative is to label any effort to try to connect with you creepy and pressurising (which it might be in an abusive relationship of course, but might be very understandable in normal circumstances).

I suppose I'd fall in to the category of someone who lacks empathy for the rebuffed partner as I'd probably feel the partner who is being expected to have unwanted sex has it worse.

I guess though it’s about being willing to look at why you don’t want to have sex (presumably you did at some point), being open about those reasons and what might need to change. It’s unfair to unilaterally decide that a relationship will be celebrate without meaningful discussion about why that is and how to move forward. And moving forward might mean the end of the relationship if the other doesn’t want a celibate relationship.

If you don't communicate properly, then you may be tacitly encouraging your partner every day to think that something might change and that the relationship might be rekindled. Then you are withholding.

This kind of touches on an issue I've had in my relationship. My partner says they need to have sex to feel connected and loved. Where as I need to feel connected and loved (among other things) before I want to have sex.

My partner feels that a lack of sex is a factor in other relationship problems where as I feel that other relationship problems mean I have no desire for sex.

It's difficult as it's completely opposite veiw points and neither can see it from the other person's point of view.

@MMumoffairy how do you manage to have sex as something just for your husband and not for you? Doesn't it just feel so violating to let someone have access to your body purely for their own benefit?

If there is no middle ground, then the one who doesn't want sex has to be the 'winner'.

Nobody should ever be coerced into having sex against their will, no matter what the circumstances.

There is no withholding sex. That is just a misogynistic phrase. If one’s partner hates you enough to not have sex, that is the time to look at splitting up, not to reframe their dislike of you as ‘withholding sex’.

In my mind, you're withholding sex if you're not doing anything at all to address your lack of a sex drive. If you're in a relationship then you do need to acknowledge that not having sex does affect your partner and then it's up to you what you want to do about it. I don't believe anyone should ever have sex when they don't want to, but I do believe that people who want to continue their relationship should seek help. If the person with no sex drive isn't addressing it, then I'd consider that to be withholding.