Leaving isn’t always better

[SpinningFloppa]

Does anyone else think people say to LTB too quickly and not take into consideration that it’s not always that easy? And for some staying is actually much easier? Once you leave you get no support and are just expected to get on with it and not even so much as moan as you made the choice to be a single parent 😒 is it any wonder that people stay when the alternative isn’t actually any better. I’ve tried to be strong in regards to my ex but what is the point when the grass isn’t actually greener! Has anyone decided to stay for the kids as leaving isn’t actually better?

Love bombing is a pretty typical warning sign and often there are more signs. The real problem is “Hollywood” calling what should be abuse - romance - so women are being almost miseducated by prevailing culture.

You see I’ve always wondered what children if women who LTB say when leaving meant

• maybe being homeless for a while
• being hungry and cold (that’s 1 in 4 children in the U.K. atm. Children of single mothers will be disproportionately affected)
• being taken away from their social network/school/friends because the only place they could live was further afield
• clothes are always second hand and often uniform doesn’t conform with the rules because mum can’t buy said uniform.
• etc…

when at the same time, at home,

• they didn’t have any of those struggles
• things might nit have been perfect but they weren’t bad either Aka no abuse, no screaming matches etc…

I mean the partner that leaves ‘because they are nit in love anymore’ is often the father isn’t it? Are their children delighted that their dad decided to leave them, that they’ve turn their world upside down just because ethey thought they were unhappy? Or are they resentful of all the struggles they ended up in Because, in their eyes, they acted in a very selfish way?

Why is it that all the talk is about mothers not wanting to give up home comfort but there isn’t one word about the fact that CHILDREN will have to give up their home comfort. And they dint have a choice in it either. Is that not important too?

Because it’s nit just about learning to spot the right man to have children with (or the ones you shouldn’t have children with).
Of course, you can teach women what are the warning signs blablabla.

but it’s nit just about knowledge. It’s also about what you’ve learnt in childhood - from always putting yourself last to wanting to ‘save’ your partner, codependent relationship, lack of self esteem etc etcetc.

And it’s the fact that men are very good at hiding stuff. How many men have looked like perfect partners, sharing the load, cooking and cleaning until the first child arrives and they just stop and revert back to a 1950 set up for example?
Or they decide to have an affair after 20 years professing cheaters are the sum of the Earth….

If we want women to really have choices, then we need more than teaching them to spot red flags. They need them to be independent financially. They need support if/when they leave. We need affordable childcare. We need systems at work that allow enough flexibility for working mothers Wo it being detrimental to their work/career. We need support for parents with children who have disabilities/SEN/illnesses. We need a system where men actually have to carry in supporting their children after the marriage ends.

THEN and only then, laving will be an easy thing to do that will nit be that detrimental to child (and just ‘falling out love’ will be a good enough reason to leave)

I think if you get to the point of even contemplating leaving or staying, then it will most definitely be "better" even if it takes time. But it's not always going to be "easy" to leave, that's why so many people stay. Even my DM stayed with my dad even tho they had a horrible, abusive relationship because she was afraid she would financially struggle raising me and my sister alone. She didn't leave til my sister was 13 and I was 20.

I agree so much... you can barely post one tiny negative thing on here without being told to LTB and when people say I'm not going to leave him etc they are berated. You need to way up the pros and cons and sometimes you do need to leave, but it's finding the right time. For many, this is when the children have left or are older. Unless the partner is abusive, it can often be easier to raise children as a unit in one house - financially, childcare wise etc.

@WakingUpDistress What a narrow view you have of single mothers.
The mothers I know who leave, have the sense not to get themselves in that situation.
Having a job, a home and a childminder lined up were the basic requirements as far as I was concerned. And leaving because the father is completely uninvolved is the correct move.
Children of single mothers don't always go without either. 😀

This. In spades !

Lol….
if it was such a narrow view of single women then why is it that single Women are more likely to live in poverty?

do you realise how privileged it is to be able to say you have a home, a job and a childminder (and being able to pay said CM!)? If it was that easy, you wouldnt have a huge number if women staying at home and stopping work because they can’t afford the cost of CM for example.
When my dcs were little, having them at after school club plus holiday club would have meant I was actually earning £500 a month. That was with was a normal full time average wage at the time. Do you think you easily live with £500 a month, pay your rent/mortgage, electricity/gas oh and yes the food too?

Just important to realise that poverty is not always the result.

Increasingly it is women who are the primary bread winners and are able to cope well on their own.

This is hugely complex. Better doesn’t mean easy. Theres so many types of marriages and relationships that don’t work.

I honestly, believe there’s very few, where it’s best for the kids to stay.

No one on MN advises leaving before you have something set up to house the kids, unless there’s really bad abuse and it’s an emergency. Even when there’s abuse but it’s not an immediate danger people give loads of great advice about how to get their ‘ducks in a row’, I see that phrase so much it irritates me just because I see it so much. It’s become a MN cliché. But it’s actually true and a good idea. MNers always recommended contacting the police and womens aid where there’s abuse, to back up the claims and to help protect the kids later. Yes sometimes abusers get access to the kids, but having the abuse documented can help. There’s a wealth of information and advice regarding preparing to leave, from posters on here.

I think there’s an argument to say that sometimes it’s might be better where a relationship has simply fizzled out. But that’s usually when the adults do still care and respect eachother. More often than not, the ones whose relationships has fizzled, end up turning into bitter and resentment filled relationships. Those also damage children in the long run. So it may be better to stay for a while, but you should still be getting into position to separate if it deteriorates.

I do agree with op that women who regain their financial independence will find it easier and the kids, will be less insisted by a split. We all know poverty and outcomes for kids are linked. And even if the mother decides to stay because it seems best, doesn’t mean the other parent will also decide to stay.

I was one of the ‘left in the night with nowhere to go, for our own safety’ and one who had try and fight to protect their kids from their dad. A man who for 10 years had been a good husband and parent and then fell down some conspiracy/flat earth/the queens a lizard black hole. Then became paranoid and eventually violent.

It’s not been easy. But The kids got to an age where they chose not to see their dad very much. They did have counselling and we moved on. Dd has just gone to Uni, ds is doing well in school. We are happy.

It’s definitely not easy. But then I have never seen anyone on here pretend that it is. My first 3 years were really difficult. Slept on a friend sofa for 6 months with the kids. Set up a home, hid it from my ex, supported the kids through the problems with their dad, police involvement, social services involvement for supports. I earned ok, not great. But managed to keep getting a better paid job. Things got slowly better and easier. I didn’t speak to my parents for part of it, as they thought it wasn’t best for the kids. I had one friend who supported me, where possible. But she has her own family to consider.

So, it wasn’t easy, that doesn’t mean it’s not better for me and the kids.

Poverty might not always be the result, but given how many people are struggling with two incomes at the moment it doesn’t take much imagination to realise that one person (male or female) is likely to find it hard to make ends meet.

A household with two modest incomes combined generally leads to a reasonable standard of living. A household with one modest income will live in poverty.

I’ve ended my 30 year marriage, we have two primary aged children - I decided to end it before we ended up resenting each other. My ex is fully involved in the kids lives, I can fully support us financially - my kids won’t go without because of my decision. I’m happier being alone and I honestly think he is too.

Its not inevitable that women will live in poverty if they split - that’s the result of prioritising his career over her own when kids are small. While the short term gain might be financial security provided by him, in the long term his career progresses while she works around school runs, childcare etc and effectively stalls her career. Of course no one goes into marriage thinking it will fail, but becoming financially dependent on someone else limits your choices and leads to financial disadvantage if it does go tits up. And in 50% of cases it does go tits up.

Absolutely this

I LTB because he was a lazy fuckwit who never contributed financially nor did any housework. His total contribution was school runs. I wfh so he did no post school childcare, if DD was sick I looked after her. Doctors, dentists, clothes shopping, homework .., all me.

I left and now I do exactly what I did before but I outsource the school runs. I have no less work to do (except that DD is with her Dad EOW so I get a few days to myself!). However I no longer feel angry and resentful, no one criticises my meal choice or my cleaning. It’s lovely. Divorce was the best thing ever for me!

Even the talk of a ‘career’ is revealing, though, isn’t it.

There are many thousands of people, male and female, who have jobs, not careers, and given you work in child protection IIRC @Jellycatspyjamas i am a bit surprised by the above post. Of course a senior social worker will have more money and thus more options than the nursery worker, cleaner, care assistant.

But poverty and living in it is still a reality.

@Spicycurry of course poverty is a “thing”, I see it all the time and there are systemic reasons why single mothers all too often find themselves in that place.

Its also true that women can be very quick to make decisions about their work on the basis that it’s not financially worth it to just earn £300, £400, £500/month after childcare. They lose sight of the longer term benefit that remaining in the workplace has for them and rather than both parties taking a hit on income and career/job prospects the woman sacrifices her earning capacity to his benefit. And then is vulnerable when the relationship starts to fail.

Knowing that happens doesn’t negate the more systemic issues that others have articulated earlier in the thread.

MN isn't real life is it. One side of the argument and a group of bitter people (not all but there's clearly a fair few) that seem to think everyone should be as miserable as them and aren't happy if they don't achieve that outcome.

The level of double standards and hypocrisy is hilarious for what is such a well used parenting site.

I had kids with the wrong person and I can see that I'm paying for it and will do for the rest of my life.

He's not violent, he doesn't cheat, he isn't verbally abusive, but he sees me as little more than a resource. A live-in nanny, maid and gardener. We have no connection and no relationship. I very much dislike him. He's a selfish tosser. He didn't show this side of him until DC2 was born and he's been the same since- 5 years.

I've been plotting to leave during these 5 years and waiting patiently for my time to come. I think leaving on a whim is one of the worst things women can do where there is no abuse involved.

My own Dad was verbally and emotionally abusive towards my mother but she stayed. As a child I wanted so desperately for her to leave him but she was so emotionally volatile, her next boyfriend would definitely have been worse so I'm glad she stayed now. Sometimes, the alternative isn't better.

Timing is everything as is therapy, learning from mistakes, planning and being patient.

I plan to leave in the next year because I'm now more independent financially, I have more energy as both at school, no nursery fees, little one can speak out now if she feels ill or needs help and I want a life for myself now, I'm ready for a relationship again wheras I wasn't until recently. Waiting is a good thing.

A friend of mine left on a whim and has struggled since.

@WakingUpDistress Preach! You are so right. I wonder what choices women would make if they were all financially independent? I have a thread on the relationships board now bc I’m ttc with my partner of 5 years and we have had multiple baby losses (no living children). My mind feels a complete fog, but I’m starting to wonder if I’ve been conned all along by this man, who raises his voice often at me and then love bombs like mad. (I grew up with a dad like that and it makes me confused because I think “well dad is also lovely apart from the shouting”.) Bc of being very sick in my pregnancies and then grief, my income has suffered (self employed). I do sometimes think it would be clearer to me what to do if money was no issue.

Not everyone has a 9-5 job which offers great progression of career. Many women don't earn enough in a first place to cover childcare for two children and they are actually better off financially to work around school hours/weekends etc. When there is little money it makes a difference.
Many women have jobs which are not 9-5 and they don't fit around nursery opening hours so they have to quit or reduce their hours after having children.
Saying that women leave their jobs or go part time just because they can't be bothered is very privileged. In many cases it's the the only option that is financially or logistically available.

i don't get what this thread is trying to achieve. Are you saying that women should stay in shit marriages because they will have shit lives anyway so they may as well?

Are you also saying that if you are poor you should definitely stay in a shit marriage?

Not saying that at all. Obviously abuse is different but that’s not what I’m referring to. I’m saying don’t make out that leaving is always easier/better as a lot of the time it isn’t. I’m not saying what other should do just how I feel, I guess I posted this because I was reading something the other day that asked why women stay in relationships with men that don’t “help” because leaving isn’t always the easier alternative and lazy men don’t suddenly step up when you break up with them.

I (rather naively) left my marriage on the overwhelming advice of Mumsnet 5 years ago (some posters still around advising LTB), and regret doing so. Ex is now remarried and happy.

I stayed for the sake of the kids. Because I knew I wouldn't get custody of them and so splitting up would leave them in the primary care of their mother. At least staying together I could make sure they were being properly looked after.

But ultimately things got so bad that for my own health and wellbeing I couldn't cope with the relationship any longer. Unfortunately that led to the kids suffering 4 years of neglect in the care of their mother before social services finally stepped in and removed them from her. Every situation is different, but I think things would have been worse if we'd stayed together.

@KangarooKenny do you not crave more? Some love and affection? A sex life?
Not judging, I’m in a similar-ish boat currently