Very worried about best friend’s husband

[Elsiebear90]

I would really appreciate some advice on this as I don’t know to suggest to my friend and how to help.

My best friend has been with her husband for 8 years, they own a house together (with 200k left on the mortgage) and have a three year old.

From the get go her husband seemed quite paranoid, controlling and antisocial, I expressed concerns as did her family, but she was adamant she wanted to marry him so we all just had to accept it.

Since their daughter was born (she’s 3) he started drinking very heavily, he does nothing around the house and won’t do anything with his daughter (he was lazy before but has got a lot worse). He has become very paranoid, checking up on her and accusing her of having affairs and sleeping with basically any man she talks to including their middle aged married builders.

He thinks his family (he works for the family business) and co workers are plotting against him, he’s even contacted solicitors about suing his family, the other day his brother asked him if he had any loft insulation he could borrow and then sent him on this bizarre spiral of thinking his brother had broken into his garage to spy on him and talk to the builders?! He then kicked all the builders out, kicked one of the doors off its hinges and smashed a chair and lamp to pieces.

He is constantly talking about committing suicide, he even told their daughter to kiss him goodbye as this would be the last time she saw him. He won’t see a doctor and is self medicating with alcohol and drugs (which he never touched before). My best friend’s family think he’s going to snap one day and kill them all, to the point where her dad has given her weapons to protect herself from him.

She has tried to get him to agree he has a problem and he needs help, but he blames everything on her and the stress of the extension they’re having built. She says he is “normal” for a while then he hears or sees something innocent that sends him into a rage and paranoia and he can’t be reasoned with, eventually he snaps out of and then wants to act like everything is normal again.

My friend isn’t in love with him, wants to leave him, but it scared she will lose her house as she can’t afford to buy him out, she’s currently trying to get his family to reason with him and get him to see a doctor, but he won’t. Please help, I’m so scared for them and I don’t know what to advise or how to help.

I know, I agree, she is just fixated on the house for some reason, her mum was that concerned she spoke to me at my hen about it and said she’s been trying to make her see that the house doesn’t matter, but she just seems to be unable to cope with the thought of not living there. I think she’s in denial about how serious this is, everyone else can see it but her.

Her mum told me it’s affecting her daughter now as some days when he’s been particularly bad and they’ve been arguing she doesn’t speak the entire day. She’s also started mimicking his antisocial behaviours, like deciding half way through visiting someone or going somewhere she’s had enough, putting on her coat and trying to leave (apparently he does this a lot). My friend is very worried about this and I think this is what’s made her start looking into her options if she left him.

I don’t want to push her away by threatening social services or have her stop confiding in me, I’m her only close friend and I know she would see it as a huge betrayal and would stop talking to me about it if she thought I would report her, it would be a last resort for me if nothing else worked.

She’s only three so can’t start for another year I think?

My alcoholic xh also used to paranoid about people and the government listening in and would accuse me of affairs. Having been attacked by him she needs to get out but its hard to make someone leave. Could you direct her to al anon and women's aid chat function. He won't change unless he wants to. I can empathise with her it's hard to admit defeat. All I knew is I didn't want my child to be motherless or affected any more by the drinking.

I’m sorry to be blunt but a house is no use to her if she’s dead. He has a serious mental illness and his paranoia may very easily lead to the “ we are all better off dead” scenario.
First she could speak to his GP, show him/her the photos of damage and describe his behaviours.
She should have an exit plan —- be prepared to throw herself and dd into her car and drive off, call the police to intervene.
Weapons in the house are more likely to be used against her than for her to be able to protect herself against a bigger and stronger man.
He needs professional ASAP and this may mean him being sectioned.

The next time he's remotely abusive or violent and she's in the house she should call 999. Tell the police she's scared for her safety. They will attend and if he's behaving anything like you're describing, they can initiate a Mental Health Act assessment and can remove him from the house to a place of safety. I had to do this. Police were excellent.

@Elsiebear90 I really don't mean this to sound harsh but no amount of good schooling will be able to prevent the psychological damage that will be getting done to her child from witnessing this in her Dad. Growing up with a parent with mental health issues is known as an adverse childhood effect (ACES) and I would say (I work in MH) that this is more than just a mental health issue, it is very likely a psychiatric disorder and One that will continue to get worse without treatment, especially whilst he is medicating with drugs which will most definitely not be helping. (Infact drug abuse in a parent is another ACE) My friend was exactly like this, in near enough the exact same situation whom also put her precious house first. Her dd is older but the end result was a suicidal dd with severe MH issues. It will, without a doubt, do some serious damage to this young child. The house and school is not worth it and I think trying to convince her of that is probably all you can do. The other thing you could do is inform social services of the environment her dd is in.

Does the child attend a nursery? Anyway a safeguarding concern could be raised anonymously via them?

I do completely understand the desire to respect your friend's choices/boundaries etc and if there were no children involved then I'd suggest you just keep offering support but with a 3 year old in the house I don't think it's ok for quite a lot of adults to know that the child is at risk but to do nothing. Your friend is unwilling or unable to safeguard her child at present.

Somehow, the safety of that child needs to be urgently assessed.

You could report it all to social services. If people are worried they are going to be killed then unfortunately it followe that your friend is neglecting to keep them safe. This might jolt her into action and also could be anonymous.

@Elsiebear90 I understand that you don't want to push your friend away, but this is how children end up dead at the hands of their parents. Often there are many adults witnessing and no one with the balls to actually do anything. C

You calling social services will be completely anonymous. Your friend will never know who called them.

As a PP has said, you can do it through the child's nursery if she goes to one. You can call them up and say you are a friend of the family and very concerned about her welfare - explain the situation - and they will make the referral for you.

Either way, your friend will never know it was you.

You have to put your friendship to one side here and think of this little girl who is living in a home where she is witnessing all sorts of awful things. The damage that is doing to her is considerable. As adults we have a duty to look after children, who have no agency to look after themselves. Your friendship is not more important than her life. You have to stop being a bystander to abuse and pick up the phone. I appreciate it's hard but think of this child and focus on her. It's for her you're doing it. You could very well be saving her life.

The next time he's remotely abusive or violent and she's in the house she should call 999. Tell the police she's scared for her safety. They will attend and if he's behaving anything like you're describing, they can initiate a Mental Health Act assessment and can remove him from the house to a place of safety. I had to do this. Police were excellent.

this is really excellent advice. I would also second that arming her is a really bad idea. Presumably her DH is physically stronger than her and could disarm her easily.

It’s a difficult position for you as it sounds like your friend really needs non-judgmental support and you’re the only one trying to provide that currently. For understandable reasons her family want to protect her, as do you, but you seem a little more objective

I wondered about the suggestion upthread of support from his own family. I say this as it seems he is too unwell to understand his own behaviour (and/or in denial), and the obvious next step would be to try and have him sectioned for his own and your friend’s safety. The rules are strict but are around the safety of his own life as well as the lives of others. That’s perhaps why reporting him as often as possible is sensible. His paranoia at work would also be relevant (which is why I wonder if his family might support the idea)

There is often a gap in such cases between what a partner can do, and what they will do. It’s hard to stand and watch, I know, but I agree with what you’ve said, if you report or push too hard, and she loses your support, then what for her? Perhaps you could say that, if she ever does seem in immediate danger you will report. That might not sit well but if she is in danger, you might decide that overrides her wish for you to stand back.

Quite concerning that she has been given weapons to defend herself in case he attacks.
These could be used against her. As is often the case with knife crime. Assuming she could even get to them in time.

As someone else said, if the child is in nursery then a safeguarding should be raised immediately. The child is now recognised as a victim of domestic abuse (as is your friend) in their own right. as a witness of her fathers behaviour and emotional abuse. The fact he hasn't physically hurt them is irrelevant. If not in nursery or if you prefer, you can report direct to social services - it might be the wake up call your friend needs if she is unwilling to call the police. Witnessing this behaviour will be very damaging to the child and could affect them for life, it sounds like it's already having an effect. You, as are all adults in that child life, responsible for safeguarding the child.

In failing to protect her dd, your friend is - sadly - culpable in the abuse.

She is arguing all day in front of her child and prioritising a school place and a house over her safety.

No sympathy from me but you are a very good friend and I hope you can make her do the right thing.

Her dad is a carpenter so has given her tools that she can use as weapons, but yes she said she’s not sure what use they would be when he’s so much stronger than her. Her dad doing that made me extremely concerned as he is a very chill guy, he’s not one to overreact or worry unnecessarily, she said her mum and sister are convinced he’s the type of the guy that could snap and kill them all and are begging her to leave him. .

My main fear in reporting it is that what if they investigate and they both just downplay or deny everything and social services won’t act because they live in in a nice house in a nice area and have good jobs, their daughter is well dressed, has lots of toys, goes to nursery, nice bedroom etc no signs of neglect or abuse, he’s refused to go to the doctors for years so there’s not even any proof he’s an alcoholic, he has no criminal record, no previous partners either (who could have complained), and it would make him even more angry and paranoid and her less likely to reach out for help because she’s worried her child will be taken off her. Could that happen?

I’m her godmother so I don’t want to let her down, my best friend is like a sister to me, we’ve been friends for over 20 years, I don’t want to make it worse, but I’m really worried.

@Elsiebear90 Social workers are very experienced and used to parents who are trying to hide what is going on behind closed doors.

I would imagine a large proportion of social services reports will be to higher income/middle class families. Not all abuse is obvious or to do with poverty. Just because your parents have good jobs and a nice house, it doesn't mean they're not physically or emotionally abusive, or neglectful. Unfortunately I've had to make several social services referrals in my teaching career, and I've only ever taught in schools where the pupils were from very 'nice' backgrounds. Some of the things those children were experiencing behind their expensive closed doors were horrific and would have gone totally unnoticed had the children themselves not declared it to a teacher. Not all abuse leaves a physical mark.

Social services know what to look for and they won't be fooled. You can obviously tell them all the information too, so they can go in prepared.

Make the report. She will honestly never know it was you. You have to think of the child first. Being reported to SS will be the wake up call she needs. SS will then support her to get out of the relationship. They are there to support, not punish. I know there are lots of scare stories out there about how awful social services are, but in my experience, they are really out to keep families together and support parents to be the best they can be for their children. Your friend needs help and she's not going to get it for herself, so you're going to have to get it for her. If you truly care for her as much as you say you do, then you need to act in her best interests and not your own.

God, this is going to be long op- my heart sinks still , with these type of posts

I lived with my ex for 20 years with psychotic illness. We were married for 30 years.

In my experience, in England, if you call mental health team, they will NOT be able to respond unless he is already had a referral to the mental health team and is under their care. The mental health team is a secondary health authority- you need a referral first to even get to see them, form primary services E.g. GP, A&E etc. calling crisis tea, is not possible unless he is already under care of that secondary mental health trust. It’s a bit like you can’t just call an oncologist and demand an appointment- you have to be referred.

my advice would be to go to A and E - if needs be call an ambulance, or ask family members to convince him to get into car and go as well. In A&E he will eventually get to see the duty psychiatrist, but if he has never had mental health assessment before he will also have scans and see neurologist to rule out physiological issues . Yes, they will have to wait hours in A and E, but going to GP is not going to help- for starters GPs will not respond to a spouses request for mental assessment readily - they are too concerned about medical confidentiality. They will only respond to the husband asking for help and he is unlikely to do that right now by sound of it. Even then most GPs don’t understand psychosis and are bloody useless at picking up issues if a person is not very obviously delusional. E.g totally out there delusions like aliens, not something reasonable like him thinking his wife is unfaithful..they’ll assume she is and think he is depressed or stressed (been there, done that)

it is important that spouse attends with her husband to A&E to explain symptoms, behaviours to psychiatrists and CPNs that will do assessment . She needs to stand her ground in going into appointments - but generally most psychiatrist are keen to have you there. It is unlikely husband will be sectioned unless he is active danger to himself or others. If she is afraid she MUST clearly state he CANNOT be discharged to home as it is a SAFEGUARDING issue. They do not want to keep him in hospital as there are just no beds. She will have to be insistent and spell out risks

if she has evidence of being threatened, or feels threatened, then actually don’t mess around. she needs to call 999 and ask for police, not an ambulance. She needs to be gusty about this, police can arrest and then assess in station and make mental health referral. Yes, I know it’s a bloody stupid way to do it and dumping on the police , but believe me this is quickest route. Again learnt my lessons the hard way,

she needs to know that part of issue of psychotic delusional illnesses is that the person who is ill, has no comprehension of it. It is not that they are refusing to see it, denying it- it’s simply an inability to recognise their version of reality they’re experiencing is not reality in spite of all the evidence presented. This is called ANOSOGNOSIA. And I know, that you can’t prove to anyone you are not having an affair 🤷🏼‍♀️Let alone someone who is delusional.

what you are describing matches my Ex’s behaviours and symptoms. But, it is not a simple case of diagnosing paranoid schizophrenia. All mental health diagnosis come from the DSM, which lists all types . There are around 10 or more diagnosis’s that manifest in delusional hallucinations or thinking alone and many of them are very similar. It could even be one of the personality disorders. It can take months for a diagnosis to be reached through observation, and in my Ex’s case he had a total of 4 different diagnosis over the 20 years I was his carer. Some of it comes down to psychiatrist opinion and experience, some of it because symptoms vary over time. By and large these variations don’t unfortunately make a massive difference to treatment, because treatment is so crap.

she needs to start keeping a diary of events and incidences , this will help psychiatrists when she goes into the consults with her husband.

She should also try to determine through observation and listening carefully, if he is experiencing hallucinations in form of hearing voices or seeing people. Hearing voices is most common form of delusions. Sometimes it is not obvious- it may be sudden outburst of anger, or a feeling she’s walked into the middle of a conversation, or him taking words out of context and recreating a new narrative around that word minutes or hours later. It may also be useful for her to understand that the hallucinations are not something he can control ..the brain is literally receiving his internal voice as an external noise - and those voices can be escalating from a benign occasional “observational” commented, to constant critical commentary, to abusive shouting. Any stress he feels will pitch more and more into abusive voices. Can you imagine trying to have a calm conversation with someone when you have 2 people over your shoulder for hours hurling vile abuse at you. It is frightening, and scary- and that produces the threatening behaviour. And makes the delusions even worse. Ok, it’s not right ..but jeez it’s not something anyone could handle for any period of time.

My experience, for what it’s worth, is that I stuck with him for 20 years. It broke me twice causing me to have my own mental health crisis. This is not uncommon- sadly 50% of people who are carers for mental health patients end up in mental health crisis themselves. 90% of marriages/relationships break down within 5 years. I was very unusual to stick it out that long according to the mental health teams. The mental health teams literally dump on you as a spouse even if you are trying to hold down the only job in the house, and be an effective single parent to you kids. NHS Mental health has literally bugger all resources, so they dose patients up and release to “care in the community” - but there is literally no community.

I managed to stay for 20 years as my Ex did, most of time, recognise he was ill and was prepared to engage with mental health team and take medication. The medication is not great- yes it works but side effects can be horrible and affect quality of life (I say this as someone who worked for company who discovered the main antipsychotic medication ,and I am a chemist, and as someone who battled to get him switched to different meds until we found the least worse option).

due to another onset of Anosognoisa, my ex decided, after 20 years, that he no longer wanted to take meds ever again. He is 60. Fair enough- his decison. I asked for a divorce immediately and he didn’t contest . He knew as much as I did, that we simply could not live togther with him being unmedicated…it would have caused the same safeguarding issues it had 20 years previously. We remain in touch, friends, but at a careful distance. My kids also know not to step in and support his mental health - otherwise they’d get sucked into being his carers by the mental health team…they are close to him, love him, but tell him they cannot get involved in anything to do with his mental health anymore.

Your friend is in an extremely shitty situation. It is an enormously difficult decision for her to make to leave him. One of my fears of leaving when kids were small was that he’d have got joint custody- and I was genuinely afraid of the impact on the kids of being with him without me even if he was on a relatively stable period - way too unpredictable. I couldn’t have even considered it until the kids were old enough to decide and convey to courts themselves. And by then I had normalised the unreasonable behaviour so much I didn’t realise just how shit my life was and stuck it out even more. It was complicated by fact he was diagnosed with an illness- what sort of shit wife walks out on an ill husband. And there there is hope- boy does hope that he would get better have a big part to play in me staying.

my experience of these morbid jealousy delusions (that’s a term used or sometimes people still call it Othello syndrome) is that it results in some behaviours she may not want to discuss or admit to- the delusions are playing out from the deepest sexual fears of his mind, and it is quite possible there is some sexual abuse going on ..this may not be “rape” as such, but constant emotional blackmail for sexual, being woken in night being accused of calling out your lovers name or accused of masturbating, or him waking her by masturbating against her in middle of the night, and all sorts of other shit I don’t even like thinking about. It will be extremely hard for her to admit to you, or talk about it to anyone or possibly even admit this is actually abuse. Be aware, don’t push her into places she doesn’t want to go, or suggest it might be happening. Shame is a powerful emotion. Just be prepared if this sort of stuffs ones come out.

my advice, to you as a friend, is to try to focus on how she can get him under the care of the secondary mental health team asap. Just focus on that. Once he is seen and is stabilised with meds, then you can help her think about what her options are . Having even a provisional diagnosis may help her read up , talk to people and realise how much she has normalised unreasonable behaviour and whether she can cope for the long haul of staying.

Tell her a house is great but you can’t enjoy it if your husband kills you.

Honestly you might lose your friendship but outright telling her she’s being fucking ridiculous and risking her daughter’s life for a house might do the job.

(not actually judging her I know how hard leaving an abusive relationship is and like others have said he sounds like he’s got more going on than just being a dick - she NEEDS to log everything with the police. Today.)

@BuildersTeaMaker Your story is awful to read and I'm so sorry for all you've been through.

However, the OP has said that her friend is not in love with her husband and doesn't want to stay with him.

She is just concerned about money/ the house etc.

This man is clearly mentally ill, in denial, refusing to get help, and is being abusive towards his wife and small child.

I don't see that it is her responsibility to pursue all of the things you describe. Getting him stabilised - if she can even get him to go to hospital in the first place - could take years. Years when the foundation of a little girl's life will be utterly broken by living with a very unwell and dangerous father.

I stand by my advice that social services need to be involved, asap. This is an awful situation and the priority has to be getting the little girl out of the house and away from her father.

The house just isn’t a priority compared to her daughters and her safety, that’s ridiculous.

He sounds like he could have a real disorder, schizophrenia or bipolar etc…I wouldn’t want my friend around him until he got it checked out

Yes second calling social services too. In fact you could anonymously.

This is awful to read- that poor child is going to be very damaged if this carries on.

It will escalate. The child may taken away from her as she isn’t protecting her.

Thank you so much for this post, I really appreciate it.

She has opened up about their relationship sexually a bit, she told me she doesn’t want to have sex with him, she doesn’t enjoy it and isn’t interested, but he guilts her into doing it, can’t accept she doesn’t enjoy it, buys toys she doesn’t want to use, they have sex at least once a week because she feels she should (I’ve told her she absolutely doesn’t have to have sex she doesn’t want, but she said she’s used to it now and it doesn’t bother her too much as she has taken the emotion out of it and it’s easier than refusing). Without being too graphic there is no foreplay, no kissing, he just uses some lube and goes at it. He doesn’t wash very often either and she says he smells so bad it makes her smell and disgusts her. It just breaks my heart. She has now started purposely getting up earlier so as to avoid him trying to initiate sex.

I feel like there’s probably a lot more she hasn’t told me, but I’m trying to be gentle and non judgmental so she will open up to me. Her first partner wasn’t great (verbally abusive, cheated on her) and I was a lot younger and immature and just handled it completely wrong, I put pressure on her to leave him and was judgemental and it just made her close off to me and stop telling me things, it pushed her away and I don’t want the same thing to happen again.

I will share your post with her as I think it coming from someone who has been there will hopefully get through to her more.

Mother of the year right there. Doesn’t care about her childrens well being and willing to put up with this crap because she wants to keep the house. I’d call social services. She is clearly isn’t capable of putting f her child’s needs first.