A new revelation....

[VJasper86]

So I've posted quite a few times and I'm sure I can link the posts if needed.

Long story short (well a bit less long)

• 2007 dh overt flirting with a friend, people encouraging him to go for it, me finding out, him still ditching me to go to the party telling me I should stay home (I was meant to be going but he suddenly asked me not to which led to the reveal of the girl)

• 2015 slept in bed with another woman. Pants were still on but I think thing there was boob and clit action to some extent, yet to get the full truth. There were messages after talking about if they weren't married, hope dh wasn't too handsy etc (how I found out). Made me feel a fool, but no detail of what happened. It has taken until recently for him to admit how far it went, but he still claims he doesn't really remember.

He never really repented his actions/made up for them, he avoided it, I avoided it, I wasn't strong enough to really deal with it and he was happy to bury his head in the sand.

He then has had some long periods of lazy husband/parenting/imbalance in our marriage/pnd for me/unemployment for him etc that led to me being on more meds and personal therapy has brought this to a head.

We are now in couples therapy, making progress, not got to the unfaithful bits yet, more how to better communicate, parent, work as a team, remember how we used to feel about each other at the start etc.

So, new issue. Speaking to a friend this week who we both used to work with. She knows we are having issues, but didn't know the big incidents. In our chat it came up, and I am open about what happened now, as I shouldn't feel ashamed and need to make use of support.

She then brings up a work event where dh tried to kiss her. This will have been 2017/18.

She says she told me at the time, which could be true as there was a lot of alcohol flowing. She mentioned that another colleague who I got along well with made a comment to her having seen the incident saying she was a bad friend and it clearly got to her.

Now I don't know in what manner this all happened, was it an attempted kiss on the cheek but she moved, was he proper going in for something.
She was and still is in a LTR so not "available"
Did my other friend overreact to what he saw, like I said, lots of booze, free bar, did he only catch part of it.

Obviously I need to bring this up, but when. Do I say now, do I wait until our next therapy session and lead with it, as that will probably then lead to a session on him being unfaithful.
It would blindside him, he will definitely say he has no recollection of it.

I know LTB will be likely and I do get it, totally, and I place a lot of value in that opinion too.I f I was on the outside I'd be saying it too.
I still don't know at the moment if we will stay together. I am more on the separate side, but personal anxiety/self worth issues mean I need to try everything to save it. Also, there are moments he is lovely and I just can't do it to him.
We have kids, a mortgage and with cost of living etc it's a big decision so I intend to give it the consideration it deserves.

But after people's thoughts on when best to address this new revelation to get the most beneficial response.

Thanks everyone.
It's tough to hear, but I know that you are right deep down. It's just finding that bravery, strength and self worth to do it.
It's taken me a long time to be honest with myself and him about how much he broke me and I'm really proud that I took the big step to "word vomit" it all out. It was a proud moment.
I think I hope that all the counselling will give me the strength because it will reinforce my feelings.

In my opinion, cheating is often emotional abuse.

Its gas lighting at the very least, which is abuse. The lies, the hiding etc To put you through it over and over and leave you in a state of heightened stress all the time waiting for the next time. Cheating on your partner emotional harms them.

Not only that he then kept cohersing you into a relationship promising it wouldn’t happen again and then pursued more women. Knowing you believed he would stop doing it.

Counselling isn’t recommended when there’s abuse. The problem is people don’t see cheating as abuse so recommend counselling. Including counsellors and I think solo therapy should be the primary focus. Not counselling with someone who abuses you.

It’s sad to read your posts OP. I am sorry that you are going through this over such a protracted period.

I don’t mean to sound harsh but it is never is easy to leave. Any of us who kicked to the curb a cheater will tell you how bloody difficult it was. However this is exactly what you need to do. He will never change, he’s a serial cheat and sounds utterly sleazy.

The only reason he wouldn't remember it would be because it's one of hundreds of other times. Because surely any man would remember a time when they attempted to sexually assault a friend of their wife by forcing a kiss on her?

He doesn't care. He just wants to be the innocent party and it's all your fault you're unhappy because you won't ignore his lecherous, cheating behaviour.

Sausagelove thats an interesting idea, I feel a lot of cheaters don't want out though as surely they want the security and stability of a home life, but the thrill of cheating.

People really have been sold a lie about this. Marriage counsellers push the idea that not only can cheating be resolved but your marriage can be even better. There’s books, courses and webinars that profess the same and the industry is worth millions.

They do want out op, or at the very least they’re ok with the gamble of being found out and losing their marriage. Most of them willingly gamble their marriage for a quick fumble. You can not really believe your husband values security and stability when he has deliberately introduced the exact opposite.

Its like saying an employee who is constantly late, unreliable, keeps stealing and doesn’t pull his weigh really values his job. He doesn’t.

My advice is to get yourself over to a cheaters forum. You will see the utter contempt that they have for their spouses.

@NeverDropYourMooncup firstlt I think a lot of people drink too much and forget that they tried to kiss someone. I also think (rightly or wrongly) people don't always see it as sexual assault as maybe he felt there were signals from her (he isn't the best at reading people and their emotions).
She pushed him away and that was it, over.
Also, his memory is poor, he doesn't remember when we first met or our first kiss.
Also I am not sure if you are telling me its my fault because I've let him get away with it or not.
If you aren't, apologies, but if you are, I don't think I am prepared to admit "fault" because I don't want to cause hurt to someone who hurt me. That's just me, I feel such guilt over being the reasonsomeine else is hurting that I avoid it at all costs.
The fact that I haven't been strong enough to respond how I wished I had doesn't make me at fault, it may make me weak (for now), but not at fault.

@Sausagelove i don't think I could handle a cheaters forum, I think I would be too sad about what people had to say about those who had stuck by them and cared for them.
And I see your point on the stability thing, although maybe he sees my mental health and personality traits as an indicator that I wouldn't leave and therefore it feels stable to him?? (I come from a family with no divorces until my sister married a divorced man)
I expect that has had an impact on my ideas of marriage and that it is "for life".
Maybe I worry that I'll feel a failure if its over, even though I don't think that of others, but I place very different boundaries on myself than others and hold myself to different rules, even though I know I shouldn't.

@WatieKatie i don't think it's harsh at all, I know I'd be saying the same if I was on the outside looking in.

@Andromachehadabadday thats interesting. He doesn't say a lot in therapy really. He struggles to convey his emotions and feelings and the therapist often has to push for more detail as his answers are very general. Even then, they are still quite basic. Do you think the therapist would learn about the relationship from my side more as I am very open, articulate etc.

Still appreciate all the comments even the ones that are challenging to read. I learnt a lot from comments in the past and that what led me to getting to this point (which is a lot further than I've gotten before)

maybe he felt there were signals from her

Maybe she led him on? Really?

It's not your fault or hers that he attempted to assault her. Because that's what he did.

You think lots of people, who are in relationships get drunk and make a pass at their partners friends and then simply forget?

I have no idea what your therapist is thinking. But if it’s mainly you talking and him not engaging, what’s really the point.

Is the point for you to just say all you need to say?

@NeverDropYourMooncup i don't think she led him on, no, but I do know he isn't great picking up on others emotions so he could have interpreted dancing and giggling together as a opening.

@Andromachehadabadday the therapist spends time teasing more words from him and encouraging him to talk more. I think he is intimidated because I am open and happy to talk and he isn't. I am probably the talker in the marriage and always has been so it's a skill that he doesn't use much. I think that's why we haven't discussed the infidelity yet as he needs to be able to talk about it so he needs to be comfortable sharing what is obviously some really bad things about himself.

Sorry of I come across as defensive at all, not intending to.
Just trying to slowly make progress in a way that I can.

he could have interpreted dancing and giggling together as a opening

That's exactly what a sex offender would say.

He has picked up on the emotions of the women he cheated with though?

You do realise you are suggesting that your husband shouldn’t be allowed out unsupervised, if he believes that women enjoying themselves are giving him the come on.

How many times has he been out with women dancing and giggling? How many times do you think he has spoke to women when out? Do you really believe if they talked to him back he probably tried it on with all of them?

The problem you have is that he isn’t opening up. So he isn’t going to when you discuss the infidelity. You are the talker. There’s every chance the therapist could be sat there thinking ‘why is she wasting her time?’ Or even ‘She is so domineering’. We have no clue what she is think or why.

I feel incredibly sorry for you. I think this is all going to end quite badly for you and not help at all.

This is just sad. Why are you with this man?

@NeverDropYourMooncup i don't liken someone trying to kiss someone the same as a sex offender. I think that is taking it too far.
He hasn't attempted to kiss every female that he has been in contact with. Clearly he liked her and felt like it was an option.
You can't imply that every person who has ever tried to kiss someone is a sex offender.
As humans we look at social cues and respond to them. Sometimes we get it right, other times wrong. The other females he had any interest in (only one of them I know to have led somewhere) accepted, so clearly he read those cues right.
I know a lot of people who have tried to kiss someone as they have totally misread the situation and it was all very embarrassing.

@Andromachehadabadday the therapist has said that during our marriage we have polarised. I have talked more and he has talked less, then that encourages me to talk more because he isn't and then he talks less because I am talking more. Its become a cycle.
He doesn't really go out tbh so doesn't come into contact with many females these days.
Back when these happened nights out were few and far between, but I don't think he made a move on each female he saw.

@greystarblanchard because I fell in love and then my self esteem took a hit (and was already low when we got together due to previous rejections) and then things get better and you forget those bad moments for a while, and then they propose and you think this is your moment, and then you have kids and then you doubt yourself as to if there is actually better out there as so many people I know have similar niggles with partners albeit not the unfaithful bit.
And then something bad happens again, but you don't have the strength to deal with it and then something else comes along that means you have to put all your effort into making it through that and everything else sits on the back burner.
Then before you know it, it's 7 years later, you have 2 kids, own a home, live 3hrs away from your family support network and decide that this is it, you need to finally figure all this stuff out.
So you start counselling to work through your self worth issues in the hope that it will give you the mind set to make a choice for yourself.
But then you still doubt yourself so hope that couples counselling will force everything into the open from both sides and it will help your feel confident in your next steps.
*yes, I know, should've left at the time, very weak, wasted years etc. I'm not stupid and do get it. It's just hard.

Thanks all though. Really appreciate the strong words of encouragement.

My friends in RL are bloody amazing, and I'm pretty sure have the same opinion as you all, but they are very diplomatic in their words.

Oh, dear.

'Is an unwanted kiss assault?

Sexual assault happens when someone touches another person in a sexual manner without their consent. Or when someone makes another person take part in a sexual activity with them without that person's consent. It includes unwanted kissing and sexual touching' Source - Rape Crisis.

Your reading a lot into his affairs and therapy sessions. If you hear hooves look for horses not zebras. He’s a man, their not complicated. Their just not.

1. He’s trying it on with other women routinely. Any holes a goal mentality.
2. He’s waiting for you to get bored with therapy so he can stop going. He’s grey rocking the therapist and would probably try it on with her too if she’s attractive.

so your choice is now do you put up with it forever because they don’t stop at 50 or 60, do you divorce him and draw a line under it or do you wait for a younger woman to come along and he decides to leave you for her.

@NeverDropYourMooncup genuinely interested in what you do if you meet someone on a night out, are dancing, find them attractive.
Do you ask them straight out if you can kiss them?
Its probably the way everyone should, but I know noone who does that. People I know would tilt their head, and move closer for a kiss. If the other person pushes away or retracts then it's a no. That's the impression my friend gave, he leaned in and she clearly indicated no by pushing him away.
This I a genuine question BTW. If I end up on the dating scene again then it's something I'll need to know.

DP asked if he could.

Anyway, you've already said you see even consensual kissing as cheating - this was non consensual. Why are you putting yourself through this for somebody who lies, cheats and assaults - and then want to give him the opportunity to come up with an excuse or outright denial?

When was she very close and tilted her head towards him? She gave him those signs?

I am in a relationship. I have been out and talked to blokes including Dps friends. Sometimes I have got the vibe they would kiss me. No matter how drunk I have been, I have never read any signs and tried to kiss anyone. Especially not his friend.

He isn’t bad a reading signs. He assumes women want him. He can’t read signs but has managed to find plenty of women to cheat with.

So he tries it on with large amounts of women waiting until one accepts. Or he can, indeed, read signs. Let’s be honest, you know you haven’t caught him out every time he happened to have crossed a line. You know that, don’t you?

You say you are polarised. For years you have talked and talked. And he doesn’t say much, because saying much will probably drop in him it more.

I don’t know what else to say, tbh. I think it’s clear that you hope this therapy will heal your marriage. Despite knowing he tried it on with one of your friends. I think you are caught in a cycle of talking and talking about it despite it not making it any better. Talking things out only works if both talk it through with the same goal. I suspect his goal is to just get through the sessions, then he can say he attended and if you still go on about it, he can say you are the problem. He did all he could do including going to therapy but you won’t move on.

Did you also have a 1-1 session with the therapist? If not, then perhaps you should.

You should look at attatchment styles op. Because he sounds deliberately avoidant and uncommunicative. I bet he can communicate just fine when he’s pissed off.

Even without all this cheating and lying it’s impossible to have any sort of relationship with these types. The whole goal is to create distance and uncertainty and infidelity and refusing to talk certainly does that.

What on earth is the point of this counselling if he is having to be cajoled into talking? He is being resistant and it’s clear he’s not going in good faith. And this is what I mean about this bullshit that is marriage counselling. He abused you by cheating, he’s abused you by lying and it sounds like he’s continually abusing you by witholding the things you want.

@NeverDropYourMooncup why am I putting myself through it, honestly, I have no idea. Fear? Thanks for the tough talking.

@Andromachehadabadday you are right, I don't know that she did that, I'm assuming she didn't, I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt that he read something into nothing, probably for my own need to feel less shitty. Maybe.
I know he passed out in the bathrooms not long afterwards.

@Surtsey i had a quick phone session with the therapist and I have my own as well that he doesn't see.

@Sausagelove i will take a look at attachment styles. Maybe I can figure out where i fit too and it will give an insight in how I can better my outlook, responses etc. Do you know what, he doesn't communicate well when he is pissed off either. He gets stressed, annoyed and walks off and is in a grump for a while.

So you know she gave him no signs she was interested.

So we are back at the beginning. You are saying that he is so bad at reading peoples signals that he attempts to kiss women who are simply enjoying their evening. Even when those women are your friends.

It sounds like you are saying he can’t be trusted at all, near women, unsupervised. Or he will take any interaction as an invite to kiss them. Regardless of who they are or his relationship with you.

and the only times he has done this is with a friend of yours? And you believe you know every time he has crossed the line?

I really think you need to get counselling on your own. You aren’t going to get the answer you want from him.

@Andromachehadabadday you are right, I assume she gave no signals as that's what she has said. I have no reason to expect her to lie and he has previous.
So I feel I am right in believing her, he was very drunk so there is the possibility he would forget so even if he says it didn't happen, I know he passed out later that evening so there is reasonable doubt if he says it didn't happen.

Reading back over it all I can see I am making excuses, I am finding reasons to justify his behaviour. I guess to save face, as it hurts like hell that someone could do that to you, so I'm trying to kid myself that there were reasons, that he didn't mean it, that things were an accident.
Shit
Fuck
What the fuck do I do now.
I don't even have the words.

My personal counsellor is person centred and so it's all about her following me down whatever path I take her on and she just keeps asking questions.
It's a "you do know the answer, you just need to find it"
I kind of want someone who can point me in the right direction as I get to a point and then have no idea.
The psychotherapist for the couples stuff says that I have a type of anxiety that I should seek cbt for with someone who is very good at it as it is quite unusual, yet not as extreme as she has previously seen.

Something seems very strange about this revelation from your friend and I’m sorry to say but I think there’s a bit more to this story.

You say you told her about the big stuff (presumably the cheating) and she responds by saying he tried to kiss her. She also says she told you at the time. If that is the case, why is she telling you again now?

Are you the type of person who gets so drunk you don’t remember things? Because being told your husband has tried to kiss your friend is really traumatic. No one would forget that and surely you would have reacted or become upset?

Why would she tell you this at a works party? Many of us have been in the awful position of having something like this happen and you don’t blurt it out to someone’s spouse in public. That’s humiliating and unkind and not appropriate.

If I saw a married man creeping on my friend like this I’d be concerned and I’d ask her if she was ok. I wouldn’t call her a bad friend because it wouldn’t be her fault. Other colleague clearly thought she was being a bad friend.

Cheaters know each other. They recognise each other. I know because I was one for a very long time. Your husband sounds stupid but not that stupid to try and smooch this woman in public view at a works party where you both work. It’s more likely they snuck off to a cosy corner and were disturbed by your colleague. Sorry op, but it doesn’t make sense.

And how do you know he kept his pants on with this being in bed story? Unless you actually caught him red handed it will be nonsense. Cheating adults don’t get in bed with each other to grope boobs. And they don’t say you can touch my clit but I’m not going any further. They’re not shy awkward teenagers.