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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

How do we help SIL - sorry, INSANELY long.

45 replies

FamilyVsExDP · 01/08/2022 14:54

SIL and her ex were together for over 10 years. 2 dc - 6 and 5. It was a pretty bad relationship from the start, with all the red flags there. But me and Dh were the only ones who spotted them and we were so naive in those days that even though we had concerns, we bought into this idea that he was only like this because he'd had a tough children and a crazy ex (I know, I know) and that now he was in this lovely stable relationship things would get better. [hollow laugh]

When they first got together, neither of them had much money but she's worked hard, studied and is now a good earner. He has been doing minimum hours for minimum wage the entire time, going part time when DC were small and refusing to go back to at least full time hours (never mind taking on extra). He talks about wanting to do something different, but makes no effort and in fact has let her pay for courses he's then not completed.

Needless to say, a constant bone of contention was that he never DID anything - he didn't take on any of the work of keeping and maintaining a house, only did childcare he had to etc.

They broke up officially at Christmas. But he's StILL living with her and the DC. Still only working 30 hours a week and still ONLY doing childcare one day a week (the DC are in holiday clubs/after school clubs/breakfast clubs the rest of the time). He still contributes the same (small) amount of money monthly but is actually taking up MORE space now as he's using her WFH office as his bedroom. He is still not doing any of the household chores etc.

She is frustrated and angry. Her mental health is a disaster. She is yelling and screaming at him daily about how he needs to leave, she hates him, she can't live like this etc. He just sits there and takes it like a wounded dog but does nothing (one of his many many controlling techniques - he's always been good at manipulating her so that she "loses it" and then SHE looks like the baddy. My view is that she's behaving as anyone would who had a squatter in their house).

He will not leave. He's on the tenancy agreement so she can't force him. He tells her he's scared and he doesn't know what to do. Vaguely implies he might be suicidal etc. She continues to feel angry and resentful but also responsible for him. They cannot have a sensible conversation - she's too emotional and upset and he will simply deny/deflect/defend (oh, forgot to mention - we're pretty sure he's a covert narcissist).

What can we do? The DC are miserable. They're also appallingly badly behaved (not exactly a surprise based on their home environment) so taking them on is very very difficult as we have our own DC to consider.

DH and I are thinking about whether we should just accept that ex BIL is going to continue to act like a child and should we sit him down and help him go through benefits etc he could claim, find somewhere to move etc etc. But we suspect he'd just say all the right things then do nothing (we've seen this 1000 times before). Meanwhile, DH's relationship with SIL is falling apart because it's so hard to be around her. But we're desperate to help her.

Does anyone have any similar experiences. Any ideas at all? We've started suggesting that when their lease is up that she moves out with the DC and finds somewhere without him - ie force the matter. But she doesn't want to move - she likes their house, their area, schools etc. I get it. Plus, she is angry but still feels like he'll never cope without her. It's unbearable.

OP posts:
RandomMess · 01/08/2022 14:56

She could speak the landlord about giving notice and taking it on in her own name.

FamilyVsExDP · 01/08/2022 15:00

RandomMess · 01/08/2022 14:56

She could speak the landlord about giving notice and taking it on in her own name.

Sorry to be shooting down suggestions right up front... we suggested this last time the lease came up. But she knew he wouldn't actually leave. It's hard to believe, I know.

OP posts:
tirednewmumm · 01/08/2022 15:02

She should just give notice and go, I'm sure she's emotionally attached to the place and doesn't want to uproot her kids but this is just daft and you're right you can't force him into acting. She can give notice, and if landlord lets him stay on in his own name then so be it

RandomMess · 01/08/2022 15:05

But if his name isn't on the lease then he doesn't have the right to stay, she could call the police and have him removed.

They would both be served notice by the landlord.

LadyGardenersQuestionTime · 01/08/2022 15:16

Urgh what a blizzard of shit. Poor you, poor SIL.

Seems like she has to choose between living with him in the house vs living somewhere else without him. Him out and her keeping the house is an unrealistic goal.

She might benefit from counselling to get over her FOG with him.

FamilyVsExDP · 01/08/2022 15:18

RandomMess · 01/08/2022 15:05

But if his name isn't on the lease then he doesn't have the right to stay, she could call the police and have him removed.

They would both be served notice by the landlord.

This is what we thought originally too - and suggested.

But she claims that the landlord says that any adults in the house have to be on the lease. So she's in a catch 22 situation - if he's in the house, she can't take him off the lease, so she doesn't have the option to get the police to remove him (plus, she'd never do that - would consider it too triggering for him/DC etc)

I don't know if that's entirely true as I haven't spoken to the landlord, but I don't think we're going to get make that one work unfortunately.

OP posts:
RandomMess · 01/08/2022 15:23

Sounds like she just wants to complain and play victim then doesn't it.

It's simple. The landlord serves notice on them BOTH.

SIL and landlord have a new lease as if she were a brand new tenant.

Or she just moves to a different rented house.

She has choices but is choosing not to pursue them and making it everyone else's problem.

FamilyVsExDP · 01/08/2022 15:49

@RandomMess You are absolutely right. the problem is that his man was emotionally manipulative and controlling for 10+ years. She's programmed to behave in certain ways, no matter what. And there's no doubt that her mental health is currently a disaster.

It does feel like we're in a bad cycle - she can't/won't make changes, so things get worse then she can't/won't make changes because things are so bad and so on.... And meanwhile, we're in this ridiculous situation of being deeply sympathetic and massively worried about her and also endlessly frustrated and bored by the whole thing.

OP posts:
DilemmaDelilah · 01/08/2022 16:13

Can she start looking for somewhere else to live with the children? Then she can move out and leave him to pay the rent on his own. I understand she may not want to leave her home but it might be better than living there with him.

Tangelablue · 01/08/2022 16:30

I agree with other posters, your sisters best bet is to give notice to the landlord to have her name removed from the tenancy and let him know her ex withh be taking on the tenancy solo. Its a pain but the situation will never change otherwise.

WidgetDigit2022 · 01/08/2022 16:42

Im not really sure what you want people to suggest.

She needs to want the situation to change enough. Beyond being there as support, it really isn't any of your business. And it doesn't sound like she'd want you to "take her kids on", I mean, how many mother's do you know who want to hand over their kids.

Just step back. Suggest she contacts women's aid for information and stay in the background. This is HER situation, not yours.

takeitandleaveit · 01/08/2022 16:53

FamilyVsExDP · 01/08/2022 15:18

This is what we thought originally too - and suggested.

But she claims that the landlord says that any adults in the house have to be on the lease. So she's in a catch 22 situation - if he's in the house, she can't take him off the lease, so she doesn't have the option to get the police to remove him (plus, she'd never do that - would consider it too triggering for him/DC etc)

I don't know if that's entirely true as I haven't spoken to the landlord, but I don't think we're going to get make that one work unfortunately.

Then how are people supposed to escape from an abusive relationship and force their abuser to move out? I'm not sure that what this landlord says is true.

ValerieDoonican · 01/08/2022 16:55

Perhaps you need to stop listening to her complaints. Don't engage. Just say "if you don't move out then you can't get rid of him. It's up to you" on repeat, cracked record style. To everything.

Clutterbugsmum · 01/08/2022 16:57

Sorry to say your SIL is choosing to continue to live in these conditions. She's the one who is screaming and shouting at her husband. She can't change how he is behaving, but she can choose how she is behaving.

I would tell her she needs to stop behaving like she is and put her children first.

You need to speak to either the children school or SS to get them some support. Some one needs to put the children first and look out for their emotional needs.

steppemum · 01/08/2022 17:04

when a relationship ends, it is really hard for most people to get their heads around the fact that the family home has to go.
In many many cases, the only option is to sell/leave and start again.

Until she has accepted that, your advice will fall on deaf ears.
So I would focus on that. She needs to find a new place to rent on her own, then hand in her notice and leave. If he stays in the old place of leaves is his problem.
Get a reference from her landlord and encourage her to start looking.

Then she moves into new place and makes sure he has no access.
Offer to help pack, possibly to have her stuff in yourgarage for a few weeks, to help her look for new home, mkae it practical and focused on new place

RandomMess · 01/08/2022 17:07

It sounds like she needs to go to Woman's Aid tbh.

FamilyVsExDP · 01/08/2022 17:08

@WidgetDigit2022 I think I'm hoping someone will miraculously come up with a magic bullet that solves the problem. Yes, wishful thinking, I know.

When I say "take on the DC" I mean help her by doing the childcare that her ex isn't doing eg giving her a break on the weekend or whatever. We do when we can, but we have to limit it because of the behaviour from DC1. DH had him the other day and its relentless. Which is of course, yet another burden she's suffering from and, in our opinion, another negative cycle - his behaviour has always been challenging but is clearly made worse by what's happening at home.

@ValerieDoonican to be honest, that's what I've done (largely) and DH is on the verge of doing that. But it's so hard because we know we're her only support and she's not in a good place. And we keep hearing from MIL who is beside herself with worry about SIL's mental health but isn't in a position to help.

@Clutterbugsmum I have tried to make that point before to her. But she's just not listening (or able to). I have seriously wondered whether we should speak to the school or SS. It feels like the nuclear option though. But maybe that really is the only option.

She needs help but is so far down this terrible rabbit hole she can't see wood for the trees.

OP posts:
forrestgreen · 01/08/2022 17:14

I think she'll have to give notice. Tell the landlord they're splitting up, that's she pays the rent. And will not be paying it after the moving date.
And on moving day, just go, help her pack hers and the kids stuff and leave him.

He's a grown adult who's being abusive. Give him the moving date

RandomMess · 01/08/2022 17:15

Her DC are being very damaged.

Perhaps you tell her she moves out and fast or you will be informing SS that they are both subjecting the DC to emotional abuse by what they witness.

TheFormidableMrsC · 01/08/2022 17:17

Is there any reason she can't apply for an Occupation Order and get him out that way?

RandomMess · 01/08/2022 17:18

I suspect he isn't abusive "enough" Sad

MineIsBetterThanYours · 01/08/2022 17:31

Would she be open to leave herself and find another rental?

StaticRatic · 01/08/2022 17:37

You say that he went part time when the DC were younger, that he hasn’t put his hours back up to full time (that he does “only 30 hours”). You said he has done “only childcare he had to” and that he still ONLY does one day of childcare, around the 30 hours that he works. Is this correct? How can he do more? 30 hours is 4 days, so of course they need to be in holiday club around that.

So your SIL has been building up her career and working full time since the DC were born. He was part time, in minimum wage jobs, but was doing the majority of the childcare. Who took time off when the DC were ill?

Your SIL shouts and screams at him. She is not happy that he did maintain the house and do enough chores and that he did courses but did not progress career wise.

VimFuego101 · 01/08/2022 17:37

I recommend calling Shelter to confirm what the law actually is with regards to their tenancy and whether she can take him off.

StaticRatic · 01/08/2022 17:40

I thought this might be a reverse at first and I am trying to imagine the responses if it was a mother who “only worked part time”, who didn’t earn enough, whose husband was angry about this, who said she was scared and became emotionally upset when he was screaming and shouting at her.

I note that you have decided that this man is a “covert narcissist”. But based on what, exactly?