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Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

How do we help SIL - sorry, INSANELY long.

45 replies

FamilyVsExDP · 01/08/2022 14:54

SIL and her ex were together for over 10 years. 2 dc - 6 and 5. It was a pretty bad relationship from the start, with all the red flags there. But me and Dh were the only ones who spotted them and we were so naive in those days that even though we had concerns, we bought into this idea that he was only like this because he'd had a tough children and a crazy ex (I know, I know) and that now he was in this lovely stable relationship things would get better. [hollow laugh]

When they first got together, neither of them had much money but she's worked hard, studied and is now a good earner. He has been doing minimum hours for minimum wage the entire time, going part time when DC were small and refusing to go back to at least full time hours (never mind taking on extra). He talks about wanting to do something different, but makes no effort and in fact has let her pay for courses he's then not completed.

Needless to say, a constant bone of contention was that he never DID anything - he didn't take on any of the work of keeping and maintaining a house, only did childcare he had to etc.

They broke up officially at Christmas. But he's StILL living with her and the DC. Still only working 30 hours a week and still ONLY doing childcare one day a week (the DC are in holiday clubs/after school clubs/breakfast clubs the rest of the time). He still contributes the same (small) amount of money monthly but is actually taking up MORE space now as he's using her WFH office as his bedroom. He is still not doing any of the household chores etc.

She is frustrated and angry. Her mental health is a disaster. She is yelling and screaming at him daily about how he needs to leave, she hates him, she can't live like this etc. He just sits there and takes it like a wounded dog but does nothing (one of his many many controlling techniques - he's always been good at manipulating her so that she "loses it" and then SHE looks like the baddy. My view is that she's behaving as anyone would who had a squatter in their house).

He will not leave. He's on the tenancy agreement so she can't force him. He tells her he's scared and he doesn't know what to do. Vaguely implies he might be suicidal etc. She continues to feel angry and resentful but also responsible for him. They cannot have a sensible conversation - she's too emotional and upset and he will simply deny/deflect/defend (oh, forgot to mention - we're pretty sure he's a covert narcissist).

What can we do? The DC are miserable. They're also appallingly badly behaved (not exactly a surprise based on their home environment) so taking them on is very very difficult as we have our own DC to consider.

DH and I are thinking about whether we should just accept that ex BIL is going to continue to act like a child and should we sit him down and help him go through benefits etc he could claim, find somewhere to move etc etc. But we suspect he'd just say all the right things then do nothing (we've seen this 1000 times before). Meanwhile, DH's relationship with SIL is falling apart because it's so hard to be around her. But we're desperate to help her.

Does anyone have any similar experiences. Any ideas at all? We've started suggesting that when their lease is up that she moves out with the DC and finds somewhere without him - ie force the matter. But she doesn't want to move - she likes their house, their area, schools etc. I get it. Plus, she is angry but still feels like he'll never cope without her. It's unbearable.

OP posts:
Aprilx · 01/08/2022 17:51

Your SIL sounds like the one who is doing the abusing here! He doesn’t have to leave, he has as much right to be there as she does. If she doesn’t like it, she should leave.

Quitelikeit · 01/08/2022 17:54

Step away. You’ve tried and it hasn’t worked so let them get on with it.

I doubt this child’s behaviour is solely down to this man but if you insist?!

random mess has made the best suggestion!

WhereYouLeftIt · 01/08/2022 18:54

If he won't move out then the only thing she can do is move herself and the children out. Remove herself from the lease and leave him to fend for herself. Do you think she would consider that?

FamilyVsExDP · 01/08/2022 20:44

@StaticRatic I didn't go into all the tedious details because my post was already ridiculously long. But for 10 years, he's been a disaster - controlling, manipulative etc. A few examples: he hates her having friends, family, work, gym, hobbies etc that's not him and will sulk if she dares to be out of the house for longer than he likes (this includes, for example, when she was studying and couldn't see him as much or when she was trying to earn extra money to save for a deposit on a house big enough for a baby by working extra hours). Almost amusingly, he had a meltdown when we wanted to throw a baby shower for her - "I'm also a parent" and in the end, not only turned up, but was in a bad mood, and pretty much ruined it for everyone. He once told DH that he found it really hard because she was so focused on the baby for the first few months and he felt like she didn't give him any attention.

He's not physically abusive, but we think that's because he quickly worked out that's a line she wouldn't let him cross. He did push her once, early in their relationship - she had bruises - but she punched him back in defence and he hasn't done it since (he did blame her). He has regularly THREATENED her though.

He did his best early in the relationship to separate her from family and friends and was pretty successful at it for friends. We didn't let him with us, although it would have been easy because of all the shitty things that he caused such as turning up late for my mother's funeral, or refusing to come to Christmas lunch the day before because of a made up reason.

His financial and practical contribution has always been bare minimum. So to be clear, he went part time to help with childcare, that's true. But ONLY if she was working. He does not, and has NEVER, done anywhere near half of the overall childcare. He dropped ONE day a week to look after their DC (she works a late shift that day). On the other four days, she does all of it - including to and from school, organising childcare, collecting from childcare, bed time etc. This is partly because he regularly uses childcare as a weapon against her - so she has had to put more childcare in place to ensure that she's not caught short footed when they have an argument and he decides to go to the gym at 6am so he can't take them to school even though she has to be at work for 8:30, or when he refuses to get out of bed because it's his day off... He mostly doesn't do weekends or evenings, so she does all of that.

She also does ALL of the shopping, cooking, cleaning, mental load etc. He does cook dinner for the DC twice a week... and complains about it.

Also, while he earns very little, he gives her just half of what he earns for rent/food/bills. The amount he gives her covers 1/3 of their rent (previously he gave her enough to cover about 1/4). He does not pay anything further for food, bills etc. We're not sure what he does with the rest - it's not a lot, but it mostly seems to be cigarettes, weed and car insurance. He does have an expensive gym membership so it's partly that too.

Also, FYI - apparently his ex was a money grabbing bitch who cheated on him and screwed him over financially.

@Aprilx due to all the above, no, in my opinion, he does not have the same right to live there as she does. He does a fraction of the chores and childcare, pays a fraction of the costs and contributes F* all to their joint lives. She absolutely does speak to him in a way that is not okay. But if you had a waster living in your house, eating your food, not helping, leaving a mess... would you be nice?

OP posts:
FamilyVsExDP · 01/08/2022 20:45

WhereYouLeftIt · 01/08/2022 18:54

If he won't move out then the only thing she can do is move herself and the children out. Remove herself from the lease and leave him to fend for herself. Do you think she would consider that?

I am going to push for this. Again. Both DH and I have tried but we do understand why she doesn't want to. It's a lovely house, convenient for DC school, close to us etc etc. But ..... it might be her only choice.

OP posts:
Brigante9 · 01/08/2022 23:26

She MUST end the tenancy-she only has to give one month’s notice on a tenancy. She sounds very co-dependant, so don’t expect her to merrily agree to this. She can end the tenancy and re-sign it with only her on the lease. Are they married? She needs to see a solicitor and discuss divorcing.

Aquamarine1029 · 01/08/2022 23:30

Tell your SIL she either makes better decisions and takes action or she will be stuck in this misery. As for you, you need to back completely away and keep out of it. If their children are being abused/are in an abusive home, call SS.

BloodyCamping · 01/08/2022 23:43

Can you help her look for houses in the same area?

Clutterbugsmum · 02/08/2022 07:55

FGS stop blaming your BIL. Your SIL is as much too blame for what is happening NOW.

As I said earlier your SIL now staying in this situation for her OWN reasons. SHE's the one doing all the screaming and shouting in the house. HER children are seeing her behaving abusive to their dad.

I can see this going on for years because all you try and do is 'talk' to her, but not actually do anything. Nothing going to change because there are no consequences for HER behaviour. If you really want to help then contact SS about what is happening at home and how it is affecting her children. Perhaps that's the only way your SIL will actually do something is if authorities get involved.

BluOcty · 02/08/2022 08:07

I think it's more powerful to show her places she could move, snapping some pictures at the estate agents windows of nice places, dropping off some home magazines things like that.

Elsiid · 02/08/2022 08:10

I think she needs to look at her behaviour tbh. If she's not happy and he won't move she'll have to. If my DCs were being affected so badly I would do anything to help them.

I'd step back if she won't help herself and continues to scream and shout in front of the DCs

Jewel7 · 02/08/2022 08:44

If it was me I would move. It’s rented she works full time therefore is in a better situation financially than him to move.
Carrying on living there isn’t the answer because she likes the house. If she can stay local then the children can be near enough to stay at their school. She needs to look on entitled to and find out what benefits she can claim.
However if she has to move further away maybe a fresh start could be a positive.
It sounds like maybe he is lazy and reliant on her and she is frustrated. Which is now affecting her behaviour towards him. No wonder the children are behaving badly as the example she is setting.

MyCakeLady · 02/08/2022 09:52

If he won't reasonably leave by his own accords she will need to leave.
You can help her find and move to a new place.
There is no magical solution she has to 'choose her hard'.

Jalisco · 02/08/2022 10:19

You could be describing a friend of mine, except that they own the house.

The only person who can make the changes is her. There is absolutely nothing that you can do to "help" until she decides to make the change. And that point will come of its own accord - your logical arguments and strategies won't do a thing until she has made the decision to act. Believe me, I know, I tried.

For years I did "water off a ducks back" - I was there for her, when she complained I listened but my response was always the same "You know that he won't change, what are you going to do about it?" Finally, last year, the final straw came. And of course it was over something ridiculously small and trivial compared to what had often gone before. But, and we had always suspected this although she denied it constantly, when the straw broke he hit her (again) and this time she called the police. He was removed, she packed all his belongings and put them in the garden shed for him to collect. And she has now been free for 10 months :-)

Until she takes that first step there is nothing you can do.

FamilyVsExDP · 02/08/2022 13:03

@Clutterbugsmum You're right that her behaviour isn't okay, but she has been in a manipulative, emotionally abusive relationship for a long time.If it was that simple, women would never stay with men who hit them, or snap and kill men who are guilty of coercive control.

Having said all that, you are all right that she needs to make the change and we can't do it for her. I withdrew for a long time but have been sucked back in and I need to go back to withdrawing and DH needs to try to as well - he was also doing well at this but MIL is v worried and gets him involved (And yes, OBVIOUSLY, this situation goes back to what she learnt about relationships etc growing up. But that's another thread).

In the meantime, I'll keep out of it and when I can't, will simply keep repeating, "It's not fair but the only way out is to move."

As for SS etc - I've considered it. But it's a very difficult decision to call social services on a family member. Especially when the issues are not as clear cut as straight up abuse/neglect (and yes, I did do some research on this a few months ago). I'll keep it in mind.

OP posts:
RandomMess · 02/08/2022 14:21

Perhaps you need to say both "it's not fair but all you can do is move out" AND "you are risking someone informing SS that your DC are witnessing domestic abuse and you aren't taking steps to protect them"

FamilyVsExDP · 02/08/2022 14:33

RandomMess · 02/08/2022 14:21

Perhaps you need to say both "it's not fair but all you can do is move out" AND "you are risking someone informing SS that your DC are witnessing domestic abuse and you aren't taking steps to protect them"

Before I withdrew a few months ago, I did say to DH that perhaps we needed to say this to her (after a particularly unpleasant day out ). We have said this in the context of the actual break up part where he was physically threatening her in front of their DS and saying things that were untrue like, "Mummy's going to take you away" but it was like it was falling on deaf ears - she just couldn't hear it.

But you're right. I can't complain she won't do the hard stuff if me and DH aren't willing to do the hard stuff either. And in this case, perhaps it's speaking the truth. It's also slightly trickier as we haven't been there as much or spent much time with her (as per my earlier comments about backing away) and we're being sucked in my MIL now but we're not actually THERE if that makes sense?

OP posts:
steppemum · 02/08/2022 15:15

The law says that children who are witnessing abuse are experiencing abuse. In other words it isn't just that they are seeing it, but that the experience of seeing it is in itself abusive.

So her kids are being abused by the situation they are in.
While it is really hard to call SS on anyone, by not getting SS involved, you are allowing the kids to remain in an abusive situation.

Time to get serious with her

FamilyVsExDP · 02/08/2022 17:32

The law says that children who are witnessing abuse are experiencing abuse.

Interesting. And with the behaviour escalating, that's quite a useful point. Thanks. I will discuss it with DH again.

OP posts:
EilidhEli · 02/08/2022 17:46

A family member is just coming out of a somewhat similar situation except in the end she turned to alcohol to cope with it. They owned the house. She left eventually after getting sober but her adult kids have totally turned their back on her because from where they are standing my relative was the problem. A drunk who behaved badly and hurt their poor father. Your SIL will come out of this the bad guy, if her behaviour is as you describe, if she isn’t careful. The abuse from the father is normalised because it is subtle so all the kids will see is a reactive mother. Honestly your SIL needs to stop hoping this useless man will change and instead focus on putting a realistic plan together that gets herself and her children out of this hellish environment.

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