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Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Are narcissistic people born the way they are?

43 replies

leafyrosepetal · 15/05/2022 17:10

I've looked this up. I'm quite sure my mum is a narcissist and am wondering to what extent some of the nasty effects are in purpose or are just inherent. I'm trying to look at it all objectively and accept she won't be changed but I'd like to understand it a bit more because tbh the way she treats me is so hurtful even though I make an effort to forgive her everyday.
I hope it's not a choice but also accept it may well be one.

She will put her reputation before absolutely everything. She has to be right and everyone has to know what a lovely person she is when I know she really isn't lovely, she's spent at least my lifetime lying to people then dropping them if they start to question the truth. Trying to process my life now. Especially as I have a dd.

I know that because I was raised so badly it's had a knock on effect on my own parenting skills and I'm trying to make sure I am a good parent and don't allow my upbringing to result in bad parenting by me

OP posts:
brandnewdayreset · 15/05/2022 17:36

I understand the dominant theory is that NPD has its foundations in early childhood development and is related to peculiarities in the relationship with the primary caregiver. I've read that it's usually the case that the person with NPD doesn't have a clue they're like that. Do you know anything about your Mum's relationship with her own parents?

hattie43 · 15/05/2022 17:52

People with NPD won't know they have it . I think my mum is also on the spectrum . She isn't ' nasty ' but carries some of the traits
Never wrong
Never accepts any form of criticism
Always has to turn a conversation back to herself eg if you have a cold she has pneumonia, if you were bullied at school so was she only worse ,
Says she's really caring but isn't
Outwardly the charmer but inwardly very

I don't know if it's hereditary but my grandad wasn't like it , I never met her mum

Mary46 · 15/05/2022 18:16

Hattie agree they hard work. My aunt says she was always difficult to deal with..

leafyrosepetal · 15/05/2022 19:52

My mums mum died when she was young. She hasn't had an easy life. I forgive her but I am almost nc now because of how she treats me.
She acts like gods gift to the neighbourhood. Will buy extravagant gifts for anyone who she thinks she can use to support her perfect front whilst never buying me anything that kind of thing. Mean comments all the time but the. Pretending she never said them. It is tiring and it's gotten to me a bit too much now.

OP posts:
Wherearemymarbles · 15/05/2022 20:40

it seems to be generally accepted that Socio and psychopaths are born
narcs are created, usually by 4 or 5 by their parents.

picklemewalnuts · 15/05/2022 21:00

My mum had a difficult childhood. As did her parents. She's hard work now, and so miserable all the time. She wants to look like she has a close and doting family, but doesn't understand How those families function.

Her communication is all about her, apart from a few learned reflex statements where she clearly remembers she's 'supposed' to ask about other people.

She really struggles to believe other people have different preferences- she thinks we're all just being difficult and out to annoy her by not doing the things she likes to do.

She expects good presents, but gives rubbish.

She's such hard work and it's really sad- the way she is doesn't make her happy. She feels left out, under appreciated, and unloved. And frankly she's unlikeable, because she's unpleasant to be around. She's the last person who could see it, though.

DomitiaLucilla · 15/05/2022 21:07

Narcissistic personality disorder is considered to be created in early childhood, but there is also thought to be a genetic element. I wish the research could be more definitive.

There’s so much narcissism about. Our culture could even be described as narcissistic. The best thing anyone raised by one can do is get lots of therapy, learn to have strong boundaries, and know the signs so as to avoid them in future.

Mary46 · 15/05/2022 22:17

I know pickleme its exhausting. Very draining long term. Gets nasty if not her way. Or silent treatment

Darker · 15/05/2022 23:04

i think there are a lot of people who are narcissistic who don’t have a disorder. It’s not something randoms on the internet could diagnose.

In general, the people I’ve known who have these traits are very unhappy people who don’t seem to have awareness of how their behaviour impacts others or how to resolve the problems they have relating to others. They are often very transactional in their dealings - they’ll be lovely and charming and generous and then be very upset if they don’t get the response/reward they want. People talk of the narcissistic ‘wound’.

sorry you have such a difficult relationship with your mum instead of the nurturing one you deserve.

Siameasy · 15/05/2022 23:56

From a completely unscientific perspective I would say they are formed either from neglect or indulgence; their needs weren’t met and that includes the need for healthy boundaries. That’s based on the ones I know. One of the parents will usually be a narcissist so there may also be a genetic element.

”Nature loads the gun-nurture pulls the trigger”

Some notable traits-always feeling ripped off, score-keeping, “me first”/throw others under the bus, one rule for me one rule for others, finding fault with everything, alienating people with all of these traits but none of it is ever their fault.

Its a huge wound and they’re chronically empty-they’re sad to the core core core when you give they want more more more to quote Marina and The Diamonds

Gingernaut · 16/05/2022 00:02

The problem is so few narcissists realise they have a problem, that they rarely appear in front of medical professionals who could study them.

Many studies are based on criminal behaviours, not necessarily murderers, because they're the ones who draw the psychologists' attention.

There may never be a definitive answer, even though many 'low level', 'law abiding' narcissists cause huge problems, for themselves and others.

Mossstitch · 16/05/2022 00:05

What I can't get my head around is that narcissists are supposed to be created by things that happen to them in childhood, and to hear my mother's tales I can understand why she is so damaged if they are true, but why hasn't my childhood, equally dysfunctional and devoid of love and affection not turned me into a narcissist 🤔

Darker · 16/05/2022 00:21

why hasn't my childhood, equally dysfunctional and devoid of love and affection not turned me into a narcissist

obviously I don’t know the answer to that, but it will be a combination of factors. The ‘narcissists’ I know have been indulged by their parents in some way, put on a pedestal, but they feel deeply insecure in their elevated position. Love feels conditional. So of course they are always very insecure and have to win at life all the time because it can’t ever be enough to be themselves, and they are incredibly jealous of others.

they are golden children doomed to languish in a tarnished cage. The scapegoat children know it’s shit and find their validation elsewhere - which can work really well but can also go horribly wrong if they are taken advantage of.

CheekyHobson · 16/05/2022 01:49

Every person is different so the same experiences can affect different people different ways. Two children can have the same genetic parents and grow up in the same toxic environment but because they have different personalities, one of them may become a rescuer and people-pleaser and the other may become a narcissist.

It's unlikely any child will be wholly unaffected by a rough childhood (though some personalities are naturally 'hardy' and are less badly affected by tough experiences) but they won't necessarily both be affected the same way (although they could be!). And on the other hand, some people are raised in wholly loving and 'normal' families but have been born with a dark personality or brain structure that is psychopathic and nothing will stop them from becoming a very difficult or dangerous person to know.

I know from experience that dealing with a narcissist is very frustrating because it seems like they should be able to be recognise that their behaviour is selfish or unempathic or rude or thoughtless etc, and yet they seem wholly convinced that they are in the right, or that other people are at least partially to blame for choices they made of their own accord, or they see other people as being unreasonable and lacking empathy for them and the hard time they've had in life. They often have a deeply-held 'victim mindset'.

I don't think there's an easy answer. I do believe that to a degree, they genuinely lack capacity for empathy and the ability to conceptualise things from other people's perspectives. My ex seemed to have very little ability to feel and articulate any feelings other than anger/irritation, envy/desire, pride and superiority/disapproval/condescension. I don't honestly think he experienced genuine and deep feelings of happiness, concern, peace, love, gratitude, disappointment, guilt/remorse, grief, admiration/awe, sadness etc within himself, and so found it impossible to recognise or care about those feelings in others.

I also think narcs are driven strongly by impulse/emotion/gut-feeling rather than consideration, logic and reason and find it extremely difficult to think things through well or consider consequences for their actions. But again, because they find it hard to admit any flaws in themselves (which I think is due to having extreme levels of repressed shame), they generally can't admit their incapacities and ask for help, like: "You know, I'm terrible at forward-planning and I know you're great at it, so I'd be really grateful if you could organise our day out and I'll pay for it in return. Please don't plan anything that's going to require any effort from me on the day as it will irritate me and I'll make the day miserable by sulking." They just don't have that kind of self-awareness.

If you have a family relationship with a narcissist who you know well enough to 'mind-read' them (like understanding and expecting the scenario above without them actually telling you) then you can probably get on okay if you limit your time with them. The key is to have very low expectations and realise that they don't really mean to be an asshole, it's just how their mind works.

That's not a get-out-of-jail-free card for them though. You're not obliged to keep anyone in your life who takes a lot more than they give. At a certain point you have to decide whether the effort of situation-management to accommodate and avoid triggering them as much as possible is worthwhile for you, and you don't need their approval to make that choice.

Narcissists do have some (limited) ability to understand negative consequences, so if you're prepared to draw extremely strong boundaries (eg "If you ever call me a bitch, whore or slut again, I will leave the relationship and you will never hear from me again"), they will probably fall into line if they want to keep you around. You do need to be very specific however. Telling them "If you ever speak to me offensively again I will leave and not come back" is too general for them to understand or stick to it.

ChickNorris · 16/05/2022 01:52

Wherearemymarbles · 15/05/2022 20:40

it seems to be generally accepted that Socio and psychopaths are born
narcs are created, usually by 4 or 5 by their parents.

This is an incorrect assumption. Only psychopaths are born. Sociopaths and narcissists are made.

DomitiaLucilla · 16/05/2022 07:09

@CheekyHobson , your post is excellent. It’s all true. Anyone attempting to have a meaningful relationship with a narc is on a hiding to nothing. They just have to be managed.

picklemewalnuts · 16/05/2022 08:05

My life became so much easier when I realised that it was about management and detached my own emotional responses.

Why doesn't every child raised by a narc become a narc? Possibly because they have two parents, and perhaps other people involved as well.

I'm like my dad. I'm a bit of an enabler, in that I manage situations to keep things calm. My sister sees that as enabling and thinks we should challenge and confront her more. I can't see any benefit to any of us in that drama.

The refrain of my childhood was 'don't upset your mother'. I find ways to have boundaries without directly challenging / confronting her. I'm sure she finds me very slippery!

leafyrosepetal · 16/05/2022 08:19

I have eventually lost all patient with my mum trying to control every aspect of my life near her so that I didn't make her look bad.
She also got really embarrassing sometimes when she was trying so hard to ensure everyone she comes into contact with that she'd regularly throw me under the bus in a great many situations.

My sister is like her a lot so my mum backs everything she says too and often compares us, says what a shame I wasn't as successful as my sister, I am successful and have invested a lot in my education but my sister married a wealthy man so she has more money than me which obviously equals more successful in my mums eyes. I don't really get on with my sister at all. My sister went around telling everyone who I'd slept with my whole life story any dirt she has on me she spills. I am nc with her now. There was no need for the things she'd say to others.
If I brought it up with my mum she'd just hold her head back and laugh and laugh and divert the attention back to herself and how she can't believe sometimes I'm her dd we're so different.

We are so different thank goodness (but if aren't say that to her!!)
Interesting perspectives. I just want to handle this situation now that allows me to have my own life and I do want to forgive my mum so I work on it every day and try to believe it's not her fault. It often feels like it is though!

OP posts:
Purplepeg · 16/05/2022 08:33

This is interesting as my MiL is a narcissist (not trying to be a MIL basher here!) but she is extremely nasty and I also suspect she suffers from bipolar as she can swing from one extreme to the other. My DH said growing up she was crazy, like she would get an idea in her head and get all the kids up at a stupid time to go out on a bike ride. DH doesn’t appear to have narcissistic traits but is a rescuer/people pleaser. If I had a bad day at work he would be stressing asking me what he had done wrong. But he is the golden child out of his siblings, his poor younger brother is the scapegoat and has drug issues as a result. Sometimes I hear the nasty tone of his mum come out of my husband which makes me really cringe but I think growing up he thinks this type of “humour” is normal as his mum was a single parent so he had no other parental input. I do believe narcissists are made, having met a true one and the brother was so normal. MIL had a chaotic upbringing and has alcohol issues but she would never believe there is anything wrong with her and gets hugely defensive. I have stayed firm with limited contact with her now we have kids as she is an incredibly toxic person to be around. Husband still feels an obligation to her as the golden child and feeling responsible for her happiness.

Purplepeg · 16/05/2022 08:38

Just to add I’m not saying you’re a narcissist, the fact you are very conscious of how you are parenting means you are unlikely to pass on your upbringing on your kids.

BoDerek · 16/05/2022 08:43

Also, siblings don’t necessarily have the same upbringing. Parents usually favour one child either consciously or unconsciously, and the first child is often more indulged and also has more expected of them. The pressure is off a bit for subsequent children but then of course there are many variables, the health of the child and parent, what sorts of things the family is living through.

LaingsAcidTab · 16/05/2022 08:48

Wherearemymarbles · 15/05/2022 20:40

it seems to be generally accepted that Socio and psychopaths are born
narcs are created, usually by 4 or 5 by their parents.

I would disagree with this. If you go back to socio/psychopaths' childhoods, there are a very clear combination of indicators that predispose a person to this kind of pathology. Even brain function scans can't really discern between nature and nurture, because brain function is affected by our emotions (or lack thereof) and behaviours.

GerundTheBehemoth · 16/05/2022 08:50

My ex (brimming with narc traits) grew up with one angry, unreasonable and bullying parent, and one very over-indulgent, over-protective parent (who was trying to compensate for the other one).

CheekyHobson · 16/05/2022 08:53

I work on it every day and try to believe it's not her fault. It often feels like it is though!

It's not her fault but it is who she is, and you're allowed to make decisions about who to allow to be part of your life and who you don't based on how they treat you. It doesn't really matter if someone treats you badly intentionally or accidentally, what matters is whether they can own it afterwards.

If they can't own their actions, it makes it a lot more likely there actually is a degree of intention in how they treat you, or at the very least, a genuine lack of respect in how they see you. Like I said, narcissists are capable of moderating their behaviour when presented with very strong boundaries that are related to consequences they'd rather avoid.

If I said something that unintentionally hurt a friend and they told me about it, I'd be mortified and completely apologetic. If someone who is meant to love you brushes it off, minimises, denies or blames you when you say they did something to hurt you, you know that your pain isn't anywhere near as important to them as their pride.

GingeryLemons · 16/05/2022 08:56

I was raised by a narcissist (well, she fits the mould of what's often known as a vulnerable narcissist, I suppose), married - then divorced - a narc (more of a communal narc really), and I feel like I've raised one, too. It's shit. The common denominator is me in all these relationships, so the guilt I carry is crushing, especially in relation to my adult child. "This Be The Verse" keeps repeating in my head, only I'm the one who fucked up.