Pre nup- long term partner

[Newpjamas]

How would you feel if your partner of 18 years & 2 kids said they will marry you as long as they can sort a pre nup?
he is the bigger earner 70k and owns the house where i am on a lower wage 12k

I completely agree. There is personal responsibility on both sides here.

i also agree it’s not as easy as ‘leave’. Or as easy as ‘sign it, don’t get legal advice, marry him then leave’

it’s a very complex situation.

This sums it up for me.
It's really sad.

Over 30 years ago DH and I had a pre-nup. We were 30ish. And it was just pre marriage. We had been together 2.5 years and no DC. I had a house of my own with a relatively small mortgage. I was at the time worth about £160k in my own right. I was by far the higher earner. DH had zilch bar a few k in the bank and was at the beginning of his professional career.

After 10 years and two DC it was largely irrelevant. Your DH and you have built a life together over the equivalent of a generation. The very thought of a pre-nup in those circumstances is abhorrent.

@lifeissweet

You keep saying it’s the men who are causing the divorces (without evidence) and there’s nothing that needs to change with the law.

And yet, the proof is in the pudding, here we have a man who wants a family and long term relationship with the mother of the children who nonetheless as sought avoid marriage law, and many others do the same. Maybe talk to some more men (outside your circle) about it rather than just stating how they actually feel.

Based on this it sounds like you’ve been a partnership a long time and in that case I think it’s a f*ing outrage he’s asked you to sign a prenup. You shouldn’t have had kids without being married but he should be treating you better than asking for a prenup! Sounds like you’ve made his life possible.
in all honesty I think you need to walk, or threaten to at least.. go and get legal advice discreetly. Xx

@Andromachehadabadday

Again with the strange argument that the marriage laws will be frozen in time from now on, despite having changed many times before. That is absurd but you will stick to it so whatever.

I don’t know why your acting like the idea that women initiating divorce more means that they actually want divorce more is some crazy theory (I didn’t say they did it for money though obviously they want want feels like adequate protection in law money wise as do we all) from extremists. It’s quite logical and has actually been studied and confirmed. Unless you think men must be at fault for everything why is it so inconceivable to you that those ending marriages are often the ones who want them to end? And why call anyone who says this an incel? Is it simply because you think that once you’ve said that you’ve won by slurring the other person? That’s crappy argument.

But nonetheless, no the idea that women may want divorce more and the law doesn’t adequately protect men is hardly the domain of incels (who as Ibinderstand them are not married and haven’t even got laid), it’s common amongst ordinary men in relationships - such as OP’s partner, who seeks to avoid marriage to protect himself. Maybe talk to some men outside your circle about this, it really isn’t an uncommon thing for men to find modern marriage law unfair and disagree with it. They’re not making up crazy theories about divorce - they just look round their own lives and see how things are with other couples.

Seriously read the post on these boards of all the pre and menopausal women who are saying their feelings to their husbands have changed because of it, not because the husbands have changed but simply because they’re feelings did. Why is it so unthinkable to you that women may want to divorce more not because men always drove them to it - but simply because they want to on account of their feelings for their husband changing? That’s not far out nor is it saying those women are evil gold diggers, nor should it be inconceivable to you to consider unless your extremely defensive about it.

Obviously something has gone wrong with marriage for men or we wouldn’t be reading posts like OP’s.

@sjxoxo

Maybe he should be outraged that at this point she wants marriage and wants to change the whole legality their relationship operates under. Up until this point she had been cool with being unmarried, and he wanted that apparently so why should he be the one to change?

She feels unprotected so they should marry? Maybe he feels unprotected by being married. It’s wrong of her to change tact and pull the bait and switch of wanting marriage on him now. He probably questions if she’s doing it because she intends to or imagines herself leaving. IMO he’s right to.

Well, the relationship is dead now you know he thinks everything he’s accomplished since meeting you while you looked after the house and home are solely because he’s so amazing. Now you know what an absolutely deluded entitled arsehole he is, and how he doesn’t value you at all, you can either split, or fake it enough to sign a prenup, stay a year or two and divorce him for as much as you can by which I mean YOUR EARNED SHARE of the assets of the relationship. Either way once you’ve split stop carrying him completely. If the dc have no relationship with him ongoing that’s on him.

The op is in a difficult position. But me and many other men are increasingly rejecting marriage because of the financial implications if it goes wrong. I see marriage as encouraging the less career orientated person to ride on the coat tails of another. That's ok if you want to facilitate that but many including me don't. I wouldn't give up my career without marriage but then I wouldn't give up my career at all because I value the financial independence. It seems a stretch to say all these people giving up their careers to "support their partner" actually had the full agreement to provide support financially (or you might as well done a cheap marriage). Nor is it guaranteed their was much of a future career going to occur anyway. A partner of a professional footballer in divorce has hardly given up a career consummate with the earnings they get on divorce compared to a brick layers partner. Marriage is a joining of finances and for many is an expensive mistake. For others it is the best financial decision they will ever make. I dispute you can ever financially join two people with uneven earning potential (through career aspirations or decisions) or assets and it be considered a good financial decision for the higher earner. So for me it will never happen unless it is financially beneficial to me (and I would expect my partner to refuse to marry me if they earned more too). It's my life I finance it entirely my responsibility.

@Oscarthedog I hope you're also willing to pay towards childcare.

One of the biggest reasons women give up work is that their partner sees childcare as her expense or says things like 'I don't want strangers raising my children'.

With childcare getting up to £1000 a month in some places, that leaves women with very little choice.

Absolutely childcare is a cost of having children. I would pay my half of any childcare costs. That's equality.

The only reason that men can get away with this is because women choose to have children unmarried, it’s a really bad move that can come back to bite you in years to come as the OP has found. Being independant and career focused is fine if you don’t have children, the whole picture changes when you do, so get married and give yourself and children security.

Nobody should be saying “walk out” get married irrespective of the prenup.

Yup, this.

@Oscarthedog excellent and you'll also take on the mental load of raising your children and running your house so your partner isn't trying to do 3 jobs while you just do one?

Indeed also equality. Everyone contributes 50:50 money childcare and running of the house. There are no women's or men's jobs in this house. Discretionary spending and pension planning is done with whatever money is left over on an individual basis.

I see you don’t really understand how to use data.

I am certain women initiated divorce is not proof they are the ones who caused the divorce. Please do share these studies that actually speak to women initiating divorce. A good wide study, that goes in-depth to the actual reasons behind divorce. Not based on what people file for, as (as I have explained multiple times) filing for generalised reasons has been encouraged for years to avoid further conflict.

I would love to see it. And yes, sorry, it’s massive incel argument. That women are awful, sub human and only want men for their money. Generally terrible people and that these terrible sub human people shouldn’t be allowed to deny them sex. It’s one of their favourite stereotypes. The evil money and life sucking woman that takes takes takes and then divorce me the man leaving with nothing. It’s one of their justifications.

The posts by women who go off their husbands simply because of menopause are hugely outweighed by women who have gone off their husbands because of the husbands disgraceful behaviour. If you want to use MN as proof of it, you have picked a bad example.

Maybe he should be outraged that at this point she wants marriage and wants to change the whole legality their relationship operates under. Up until this point she had been cool with being unmarried, and he wanted that apparently so why should he be the one to change?

How do you know she is the one that changed her mind? How do you know he has promised and out it off for all these years. It’s naive of her to have gone along with it. But that doesn’t mean she changes her mind. Or even if she did that, that’s wrong.

She feels unprotected so they should marry? Maybe he feels unprotected by being married. It’s wrong of her to change tact and pull the bait and switch of wanting marriage on him now. He probably questions if she’s doing it because she intends to or imagines herself leaving. IMO he’s right to.

Again, why so convinced she did a bait and switch? Or maybe she realised his claim he sees everything as shared has been a lie. He doesn’t need to protect his money from her if he truly views it as shared. He has misled her that they are building a shared life together. Because if he believes it needs protecting from her, he hasn’t viewed it as a shared life. He should have been upfront about that.

@Oscarthedog i do agree to a point.

I was clear when I was getting married. I wasn’t going to go PT or stay at home. Nor would I support a sahp. It was complete equity in mental load and child care and house work. Exh was a dick in many ways but definitely did that. I was only 20 when I got married but absolutely would not have got married or had kids if he didn’t agree with my view on this. And he did stick to it.

But right up until the divorce. Then he decided if he wasn’t in a relationship with me then he wasn’t fussed about the kids. So I had them permanently.

But I don’t think there’s anything wrong with being clear about how you feel. I have been clear with dp. No sharing of finances or assets, no marriage. He benefits from my much higher wage now and can build his own. But I have no interest in continuing to support someone. We don’t/won’t be having shared children so no need for his career to be impacted.

However, if we were having kids and building that life and he did his impact his career, I think the least I could do would to give him security.

I see nothing wrong in your stance. As long as everyone is upfront.

I'd agree to a prenup on the basis that any wealth he had BEFORE your relationship was the only thing in scope of it. That way anything that was accrued after you got together, lived together and had babies would be out of pre nup scope and up for 50/50 sharing in the event of the divorce, irrespective of whether your name is on the deeds or not.

Then I'd marry him, and divorce him as PP have noted he sounds like a prince of a man

@Andromachehadabadday

I see it is pointless discussing with you as anything contrary to your view is “incel” argument (which is a convienent of stupid way of you thinking you have dismissed it in your mind. But no, again, There is nothing in considering marriage law undesirable to higher earners or men which equates to considering women sub human, evil and thinking they are out to take mens money so please stop with the hysteria, it’s tired and transparent.

As I’ve said the proof is there - read the post, OP’s man isn’t an incel yet won’t get married because of a disagreement with law, same as some guy above.

You seem to believe it is men driving women to initiate divorce - by your logic that means you must think men are awful and subhuman no? After all, any one who considers the possibility that female initiation of divorce may possibly be as a result of them wanting divorce more (and there is much to say this is the truth) thinks the same of women.

It’s quite possible women want divorce more for
reasons other than men driving them to it. But let’s say your right and men are causing women to initiate divorce more, that would also be an acceptable thing to talk about. Let’s say neither of us know for sure and simply wish to talk about it or find out. Neither point of view or discussion of such means those considering or talking about it find one or the other gender subhuman and evil and the attempt to claim this as a way of dismissing an argument which triggers you is just that, a defensive emotional reaction to try to immediately shut up someone you don’t agree with by calling them bigoted or an extremist in some way. It’s immature and very stupid.

Ultimately you can say what you like about it, but the fact you try so hard to argue against women wanting the divorce quite often m and what men think of marriage laws, coupled with the guys like this who seek to avoid marriage - and what men actually say irl (not incels, just stock standard men) which you clearly have little exposure to, says it all.

It would be an interesting survey - who wanted your divorce - but I suspect people like yourself would try to get it stopped lest it showed something you didn’t want to acknowledge. But perhaps you could make a MN post about it, might be enlightening.

See there’s your comprehension. I didn’t say it was incel thinking. I said it’s an argument used by uncles. Not only incel a but it’s one of their favourites. That’s where the claim that women starting divorce means women are the ones at fault.

Doesn’t mean everyone who doesn’t want to marry sees women like that.

An argument can be made by one group of people, but people who make that aren’t argument don’t have to be part of the group.

you have taken one set of data and applied presumptions to it. When the data doesn’t support that at all. The data Simple’s states that more women start divorce than men. It does not look at the marriage breakdown.

how do you extrapolate that to the presumption (again) that I have little exposure to men in real life? Or divorce or life in general and less than you do?

You claim there are good, studies that prove women decide to divorce more often just because they fancy it. But can’t link them. You claim MN is proof that women often go off their husbands purely because of menopause, when the threads where women have gone off their husbands due to their husbands behaviour far outweigh them.

The question ‘who wanted divorce?’ Proves nothing. I would love a study that looks at the actual reasons behind why people divorce. And actual good study.

But that question doesn’t answer fault. You can want a divorce but the marriage breakdown not be your fault.

If someone (man or woman) initiates divorce because their spouse cheated on them repeatedly, the wronged party may want and initiate divorce. So they wanted the divorce. Doesn’t mean the marriage breakdown was their fault or they are not the wronged party. Again, who starts divorce proceedings does not indicate fault. So for all you talk of ‘women start divorce more often’ is proof more women end their marriage because they just want to or go through menopause, you have no proof.

it’s quite clear you don’t have much clue on how divorce works now or before the no fault law came in. You don’t understand the process or what’s been the legal advice ( like not being confrontational in your reasons for divorce) for years.

I think both sexes can behave badly in a marriage. But who wants or starts divorce is not proof of who behaved badly. It’s really that simple.

@Oscarthedog The flaw in your argument is that a lot of men say that they will do an equal amount of work when children come along but then quickly welsh on the deal when they realise how fucking exhausting and tedious all the grunt work is.

When he bought the house but did not put you on deeds why did you not see enormous red flag? I think if you wanted marriage you should have said so and refused to have DC without it. I would be leaving him if it was me.

So you described some kind of incel argument for no reason then, given that I never made the argument that you described. Either that or you made it in an attempt to simply invent something that I’d never written, which is an opinion of a group of sicko’s and by doing so make it seem as though my argument was somehow tied to them and by association must be wrong and bad.

Either you are trying to dismiss an argument by slurring it as being the same as one of a looked down upon group incles (even though mine doesn’t resemble what you wrote at all) or you are simply talking about irrelevant things other people think which have no bearing on this.

Try to understand, if a man concocted a bizzare fantasy around some government body because he thought they were corrupt in some way, and then took it upon himself to enact some kind of violence because of that, that wouldn’t mean that the government body wasn’t corrupt and other people shouldn’t say it - only that his reaction had been insane as a result of his insane character.
Same thing here, I don’t know what incels think of marriage (I didn’t think they got near that stage, isn’t it all about being some virgin loser who the “hotties” don’t want to bang?) but if they don’t agree with marriage law then it doesn’t mean other people therefor are somehow associated with them if they also don’t. And if you can understand that - why would you reference them at all in our back and forth - if not to make an argument or slur to try to tie what I’m saying to them as though that means anything?

you can easily google many articles and studies about why women want divorce more - obviously they all put their own slant on this which differ widely and are clearly biased once way or the other in most cases, perhaps you can pick the “actual good” studies from the ones you agree with most.

Nonetheless most marriages don’t end because of men cheating and I never said they ended solely because of menapause either, there’s that comprehension again. Many end because of what are considered no fault reasons - ie grew apart etc. etc. - it is here were women are far more likely to be the ones who feel that way despite it not actually being fault as in an act of cheating etc, it nonetheless has significance because obviously if women are much more likely to end a marriage which is stable, non abusive and doesn’t involve cheating or some kind of addiction - that has a serious implication for men considering marriage and the lens through which they view marriage law.

That’s what your seeing here - when normal men with girlfriends and often children don’t want marriage - they look around and see many divorces happen to guys they may know or fathers or uncles etc - where it seems that nothing has really changed other than feelings, they then take a look at the initiation rates of divorce and the overall divorce rate - then they look at the marriage law which not only doesn’t reflect fault but also doesn’t reflect who wanted to break the contract etc - and given all that come to the logical conclusion that marriage sucks for them. Well unless they plan to be a stay at home dad to a career woman and divorce their wife. And so they don’t marry like this guy.

That really shouldn’t be hard for you to understand. Now I know that you might think that’s unfair on the woman in this situation - and it is, but that’s because they feel what would benifet her is unfair on them. It’s a shame they both can’t feel protected by marriage but that’s what it is - and when you have people arguing tooth and nail that the law can’t possibly change to protect both and the men who won’t marry are simply wrong like the incels then it’s going to be very hard to reach a satisfactory situation for both isn’t it?

Tbh that’s a wall of text I can be arsed addressing every point.

Women being the main instigators of divorce does not mean women must carry the fault for the marriage ending. Wanting the person who instigated divorce to be financially punished, for instigating it, regardless of the actions of the spouse is something Incels want. They use the ‘women apply for divorce more than men, that means xyz’

Again, that doesn’t make all men who don’t want to marry, Incels. You can not want to marry and also understand that the person filing for divorce is often also the wronged party.

Most people apply for a divorce on generic reasons to avoid further conflict. It is common legal advice. So that data often doesn’t reflect real lives.

I would love to see some studies. I don’t mind if they contradict me. But you don’t have them.

you used MN to try and prove your point about women ending marriages. When that doesn’t work, MN is no longer relevant.

Putting financial sanctions on people filing for divorce, means people will stay in shit marriages (including abusive situations)

Marriage means sharing assets. So therefore they are shared on divorce.

and finally, if you lead someone to believe you are building a life together but aren’t not and let them put themselves in a shitty financial situation without telling them what you don’t view it as shared. You are a twat.

Fact is, this couple built a life together. If he has built most of it before his relationship with Op, then fair enough. But he hasn’t.

If he feels his money needs protecting from the op he never viewed it as shared in the first place

@Andromachehadabadday

Reading isn’t so hard. You just start at the first line and go across then down. Then there’s a little gap between “walls of text” (known as paragraphs) and you do it again.

Or of course you can just write Incels think that over and over as though you’ve made some kind of point, while really just displaying your lack of ability to discuss something on its own merits.